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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
Hesadanza's Comments
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Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.
Hesadanza »Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:40 pm
Agree: 5 
Disagree: 3
Krister Stendahl's first rule of interfaith discussion - if you want to know more about what a religion believes, ask them, not their enemies or critics. Asking their critics is a breach against the commandment, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
"The Bible vs The Book of Mormon" was created by critics of the LDS Church and does not present truthful information. -
Has God Called You? Discerning the Call to Preach
Hesadanza »Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:35 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 1
Seems to me that God calls people in the same way He has called them since the beginning.
"And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" (Hebrews 5:4).
And how was Aaron called? God spoke to Moses and told him to ordain Aaron, consecrate him, and set him apart in the priest's office. This was nothing that Aaron found inside himself, and self-proclaimed himself to be a priest. He received the authority of the priesthood from one already in authority. -
Going to church and worshiping Him there is different than going to the temple and performing ordinances of His gospel there. The temple is a special sacred place that is different than a church building (chapel). It is the House of the Lord.
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Christ's death did not bring an end to temple worship. I have already shown numerous times throughout the New Testament where the early Christians worshiped in the temple.
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Jewish thought, particularly in response to developing christology and its perceived threat to monotheism, was more reticent to speak of humans attaining divinity. Nevertheless, Jews shared some of the crucial biblical texts underlying deification. Talmudic Judaism tended to stress humanity´s obligation to imitate God´s holiness in consequence of being created in the divine image. Moses and other prophets were spoken of as sharing God´s glory and becoming "secondary gods" in relation to other mortals (Meeks, pp. 234–35). Philo described Moses´ glorification as "a prototype…of the ascent to heaven which every disciple hoped to be granted" (Meeks, p. 244).
Due to its incongruity with the doctrine of God in Western Christianity, deification fell out of favor as the preferred way of describing salvation. Catholic theology increasingly stressed the transcendence of God, who alone was self-existent and eternal. All other beings were created ex nihilo, "out of nothing," having only contingent being. This theological development culminated in Augustine. For him, God´s absolute oneness and otherness was so different from humanity´s created status and dependence on divine grace that salvation could not bridge the gap between the eternal Creator and the creatures contingent upon him. Ever since, talk of deification has been suspect or heretical in Western Christianity and has formed a major point of objection among traditional Christians to the teachings of Latter-day Saints on the subject. -
From the second to eighth centuries, the standard Christian term for salvation was theopoiesis or theosis, literally, "being made God," or deification. Such language survived sporadically in the mystical tradition of the West and is still used in Eastern Orthodoxy. LDS doctrines on eternal progression and exaltation to godhood reflect a similar view of salvation.
In its classical form, particularly in the works of Athanasius (fourth-century bishop of Alexandria), deification was built upon the concept of the incarnation of Christ. The Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325) defined the Son as homoousios (of the same substance) with the Father, and thus fully God. By taking upon himself our flesh through birth, Jesus as God united the essence of humanity to the divine nature. Eventually Christ´s divinity overcame the limits of the flesh through resurrection and glorification, transforming and raising his body to the full level of godhood. As Athanasius summarized, "God was made man that we might be made God" (On the Incarnation of the Logos 54).
Although the doctrine has been dismissed by later scholars as a mere "physical theory of redemption" focused on the Resurrection, deification is more than a synonym for immortality. Church Fathers argued that deification not only restores the image of God that was lost in the Fall, but also enables mankind to transcend human nature so as to possess the attributes of God. "I may become God as far as he became man," declared Gregory of Nazianzus in the late fourth century (Orations 29.19). Descriptions of deification included physical incorruptibility, immunity from suffering, perfect virtue, purity, fullness of knowledge and joy, eternal progression, communion with God, inheritance of divine glory, and joint rulership with Christ in the kingdom of God in heaven forever.
The roots of the Christian doctrine of deification are primarily biblical. Beginning with the creation of humanity in the image of God (Gen. 1:26–27), the church fathers developed aspects of deification from such concepts as the command to moral perfection and holiness (e.g., Lev. 19:1–2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Jn. 3:2; 1 Cor. 11:1; 2 Pet. 1:3–7), adoption as heirs of God (Rom. 8:15–17; Gal. 4:4–7), unification with God in Christ (John 17:11–23), and partaking in Christ´s sufferings in order to be elevated with him in glory (e.g., Rom. 8:16–18; 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:16–18; Philip. 3:20–21; 2 Tim. 2:10–12). They also pointed to examples of humans described as "gods" in scripture (Ex. 4:16; 7:1; Ps. 82:6; John 10:34–36). -
If divinization or deification is that we receive of God's divine nature, we in fact become divine as He is. We become deified. That is godhood.
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continued...
Though Latter-day Saints have often been ridiculed for believing that humans are gods in embryo, it was one of the most common teachings found in the early Christian church. Indeed, it is still a prominent doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox churches and is even acknowledged in passing in the current Roman Catholic catechism, of which paragraph 398 declares, “Created in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully ‘divinized’ by God in glory.” Paragraph 1265 says that “Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte ‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, who has become a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.” Paragraph 460 reads:
"The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” ‘The only‑begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.’”
In 1998, Jordan Vajda, O.P., a Roman Catholic priest, submitted his master’s thesis to the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. Entitled “‘Partakers of the Divine Nature’: A Comparative Analysis of Patristic and Mormon Doctrines of Divinization.” In his first chapter, Vajda writes, “Members of the LDS Church will discover unmistakable evidence that their fundamental belief about human salvation and potential is not unique nor a Mormon invention. Latin Catholics and Protestants will learn of a doctrine of salvation that, while relatively foreign to their ears, is nevertheless part of the heritage of the undivided Catholic Church of the first millennium. Members of Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches will discover on the American continent an amazing parallel to their own belief that salvation in Christ involves our becoming ‘partakers of the divine nature.’” -
The concept that mortals are destined to become gods is called theosis or apotheosis in Greek (meaning divinization or deification) and was one of the most common teachings found in the earliest centuries of Christianity. Citing the words of Jesus in John 10, the second-century A.D. Christian philosopher Justin Martyr wrote, “let the interpretation of the Psalm be held just as you wish, yet thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming ‘gods,’ and of having power to become sons of the Highest” (Dialogue With Trypho 124). Another second-century Christian theologian, Irenaeus, cited Psalm 82 and commented, “For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods” (Against Heresies 4.38:4).
Other early Christian Fathers who read Psalm 82 in the same manner include Tertullian (died ca. A.D. 160), Cyprian of Carthage (mid-2nd century A.D.), Clement of Alexandria (died A.D. 215), Novation (3rd century A.D.), Maximus the Confessor (ca. A.D. 580-662), Athanasius of Alexandria (A.D. 296-373), Cyril of Jerusalem (A.D. 315-386), Gregory Nazianzen (ca. A.D. 325-389), John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407), Jerome (ca. A.D. 340-420), Augustine of Hippo (ca. A.D. 354-371), and the Persian Aphrahat of Syria (4th century A.D.).
Commenting on Peter’s message concerning the divine nature, an early ninth-century Syriac Church Father, John of Dara, wrote, “Human nature cannot imitate God or unite with him except by the divine gifts that it receives from him. Of all these, the most excellent is that of the priesthood, by which we participate in the divine nature.” It interesting that he tied theosis to priesthood, which finds agreement with LDS teachings that we can become kings and priests, queens and priestesses to God. -
I have given you my view, the LDS Church's view, several scholars views, and the early Christian father's view on theosis. I'm not sure if there is much more we can say.
Satan desired to take away man's agency, and usurp God's glory for himself. Christ desired to do the will of the Father, and the glory would be to the Father. That was the difference. -
Joseph Smith too was a Christian martyr, who sealed his testimony with his blood (Hebrews 9:16-17). For Joseph also testified of the same thing Stephen did:
"22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (D&C 76:22-24).
And for this mobs raged, combined, and killed the prophets in cold blood. -
Although, that would put you in a bit of a quandry since Paul declared that "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Cor. 12:3).
The Book of Mormon declares that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of the world over and over and over again. -
Putting Jesus and Satan as equals is precisely what we will not do, but our critics will not spare any effort to make it so appear!
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that every one of us is a spirit son or daughter of God the Father, and that includes Christ and Satan, and you and me. But that is where their similarities end. The gulf that divides Christ from Satan could not be more wide! Christ was the first-born who followed the will of the Father, while Satan rebelled and was cast down from heaven. Christ will receive endless glory, while Satan will receive endless damnation. Christ is our Savior and Redeemer, the only One by which we may be saved. Satan is our common enemy, Lucifer, the adversary, the evil one, the father of all lies. They are no more spiritual brothers than you or I are with Hitler. Do you understand?
Yes, Jesus is the Son of the eternal Father in heaven, for He declared it so! And if a Son, a begotten Son, there was a time when He was actually made so!
"15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 16:15-17).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). -
I would say that Joseph immediately had a better understanding of the nature of God from the First Vision than many have had through entire lifetimes of theological study. For he actually saw them. Two individuals. Two men. Their glory above the brightness of the sun, so bright Joseph feared the trees might catch fire. Christ standing on the right hand side of the Father. The Father signaling to the Son as He introduced Him as His Beloved Son. Volumes could be written on what Joseph Smith understood about God just from this singular experience. Actually, there have been volumes written.
Yes, there are many similarities between Mormonism and Masonry, and there are only two options why that is so. One, Joseph pilfered them from the Masons to introduce them into Mormonism, although no one is sure exactly why he would want to do that. Or two, they both come from a much more ancient tradition and single all-embracing "pattern". As Hugh Nibley has noted, "There are, in fact, countless tribes, sects, societies, and orders from which he might have picked up this and that, had he known of their existence. The Near East in particular is littered with the archaeological and living survivals of practices and teachings which an observant Mormon may find suggestively familiar... Among the customs and religions of mankind there are countless parallels, many of them very instructive, to what the Mormons do" ("The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment", 2005, xxviii). -
The LDS believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God. Is that a proper understanding?
Why do you believe the Masons worshipped a god? From what I understand, it was and is a fraternal brotherhood organization that allows its adherents to worship God however they please. It is not a religion. So I'm not sure how any kind of Masonic influence introduced any sort of conception of God into Mormonism. Joseph knew the nature of God from the very start with the First Vision, long before any masonry was involved.
We will not and can not ever become God the Father. He is and will always be our God. But He has promised us a crown, glory, honor, and dominion over His creations, even to sit down with Him and share His throne with Christ (Psalms 8; Rev. 3:21).
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High" (Ps. 82:6).
"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Romans 8:17). -
I guess when we pass through the veil one of us will be pretty suprised then, jester.
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Poll: 1 Out of 6 Won’t Vote for Mormon President
Hesadanza »Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:49 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0
"What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).
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Poll: 1 Out of 6 Won’t Vote for Mormon President
Hesadanza »Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:43 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0
What were you expecting to find? The gospel doesn't change from one scripture to another. It is the same to whomever the Lord reveals it.
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Poll: 1 Out of 6 Won’t Vote for Mormon President
Hesadanza »Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:01 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0
"For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have" (2 Nephi 28:30).
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Poll: 1 Out of 6 Won’t Vote for Mormon President
Hesadanza »Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:55 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0
Good luck then.
Holy Bible: Mosaic
On our own we are little more than bits of stone and glass. Together we are the Body of Christ. Holy Bible: Mosaic is an invitation to experience Christ in His Word and in the responses of his people. Each week, as you reflect on guided Scripture readings aligned with the church seasons, you will receive a wealth of insight from historical and contemporary writings.
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