Hyperion, they called it the Dark Ages because it was a time of the great plague where more than half of Europe died. There were constant wars between Goths, Saxons, Visigoths, Vikings, Mongols and many others. It was not called the Dark ages because of the Catholic Church. In fact, the Catholic Church was the one place that served the poor, educated children and adults in school where they cou...more

Hyperion, they called it the Dark Ages because it was a time of the great plague where more than half of Europe died. There were constant wars between Goths, Saxons, Visigoths, Vikings, Mongols and many others.

It was not called the Dark ages because of the Catholic Church. In fact, the Catholic Church was the one place that served the poor, educated children and adults in school where they could learn to read and write, and served the community with hospital outreach for the sick and the ailing. Governments didn't feed the people when they were hungry. It was the Catholic Church through all the volunteers, Nuns, Priests and Monks who gave their lives to serve the people of God with whatever they had.less

He has been actuall removed from his teaching position, but still has Priest faculties and those have been reduced as well. The Church is trying diligently to give this Priest many chances for a return to the Catholic position of Pro-Life. I would not be surprised if he is excommunicated by his Bishop soon. I will pray for his conversion of heart, and if that won't happen because of his lack of...more

He has been actuall removed from his teaching position, but still has Priest faculties and those have been reduced as well. The Church is trying diligently to give this Priest many chances for a return to the Catholic position of Pro-Life.

I would not be surprised if he is excommunicated by his Bishop soon. I will pray for his conversion of heart, and if that won't happen because of his lack of obedience to the Lord then he must be cast out.less

Cont'd The Catholic Church does have the right to interpret scripture, as it is her book. The Apostles founded the Catholic Church, wrote the letters and Gospels and was defined by the Catholic Church. Think about it for a second, why would anyone else be able to interpret? It is their book, it belongs to this church and was entrusted to her by the Holy Spirit. At the time, there was no other c...more

Cont'd

The Catholic Church does have the right to interpret scripture, as it is her book. The Apostles founded the Catholic Church, wrote the letters and Gospels and was defined by the Catholic Church. Think about it for a second, why would anyone else be able to interpret? It is their book, it belongs to this church and was entrusted to her by the Holy Spirit. At the time, there was no other church or game in town. Moreover, no other Christians did anything outside their Bishop. If you are not with your Bishop who has apostolic authority, then you are not a Christian was the rule in the first 1000 years.

I'm glad you think there are saved Christians in the Catholic Church. There are many indeed. I feel the same way about Christians who are not fully united with the Catholic Church, that some are saved and some are not. It is their heart that God judges. The lack of unity within Christendom is a failure of man's flesh and the fault likes on both sides of the fense. Our Lack of unity makes the story of Jesus as the Messiah a fable at best. Our lack of unity is a wound that must be healed in truth. Our lack of unity sends many to HeII, because it hurts our evangelism efforts.

Lastly, while you think the Catholic Church went off track and have some doctrines that are heretical. The question I would ask you as I asked myself was; where is my authority to even say that? Where is my authority to interpret? Where is my authority to receive a special gift of the Holy Spirit to be lead into all Truth? While I believe I have many gifts from the HS, I did not receive that one because I am not an Apostle and an Apostle who gave that gift to the Bishops did not give it to me. I believe we are all called to read scripture and test it against how we practice our faith. Nothing in our faith can contradict scripture and there is nothing in the Catholic faith that contradicts scripture. There were always three areas of authority for the earliest Christians; The Church Bishops in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, Scripture and Tradition.

As an evangelical I wanted to worship and believe as the earliest Christians did. I do now today as a Catholic. My father and Grandfather worship and believe how they interpret scripture by themselves without any oversight. My father's church does not believe as my grandfather's church and more and more division continues....

Peace brother Muggleless

Cont'd Paragraph 3: Yes, all the early churches were Catholic and lived out their belief and practice as Catholics do today. Get any book from a evangelical seminary except maybe a Liberty University and they will all concur. Liberty won't because they are not really known for producing great thinkers, since most great minds will want to discover the historic church. As an evangelical, I had no...more

Cont'd

Paragraph 3: Yes, all the early churches were Catholic and lived out their belief and practice as Catholics do today. Get any book from a evangelical seminary except maybe a Liberty University and they will all concur. Liberty won't because they are not really known for producing great thinkers, since most great minds will want to discover the historic church. As an evangelical, I had no clue that the Catholic Church defined our New Testament. Technically, that makes the Bible a Catholic Book then and that really irritated me at the time. Look at the book called the Didache. It was written in Greek in the year 84AD. It describes practices of the early church like a handbook of sorts. In it describes the full Mass, still as we have it today. That got me thinking; is my worship style just man made and this was Heaven made?

I apologize about any assumption I made. You are a Christian brother and nothing was intended. Pax!

There was one deposit of faith given by the Apostles. This faith was illuminated over time by the Holy Spirit to the Church. Again, it was not the RCC it was the CC that makes dogma. I'm actually not Roman Catholic, I am Byzantine Catholic in full communion with the Bishop of Rome. When you say RCC you denigrate without knowing 30 million Eastern Christians who are fully Catholic just not Roman. My particular church dates from the time of Paul when he evangelized modern day Turkey. My Catholic roots are eastern and were always Catholic. The Catholic Church tends to make doctrine over time as certain things are attacked. The divinity of Christ, his two natures, Trinity, communion of Saints and the canon of scripture were all defined over time when it was attacked. There was no need to define something until someone or some group attacked it. The New Testament as an example was attacked in the 3rd century by a heretic who taught the Gospel of Thomas and Mary Magdalene were inspired. The CC said no, and then had multiple synods and two councils to canonize the NT.less

Did I tell you that I really like the Harry Potter books? Muggleborn-love the name! I'll address your items one by one. Systematic theology was my concentration and now I'm even stystematic about how I eat breakfast, but that is a whole other topic.;) 1st paragraph: You make a strong assumption that my findings about 1st and 4th century Christians is highly biased when I read them as an Evange...more

Did I tell you that I really like the Harry Potter books? Muggleborn-love the name!
I'll address your items one by one. Systematic theology was my concentration and now I'm even stystematic about how I eat breakfast, but that is a whole other topic.;)

1st paragraph: You make a strong assumption that my findings about 1st and 4th century Christians is highly biased when I read them as an Evangelical. I had no desire to be Catholic. This is what the church believed and practiced. I would kindly challenge you to read the Early Church Fathers, for how they defended infant baptism, the Eucharist, confession to Priests, etc. When I read these as an evangelical I was dumbfounded. I never stepped foot in a Catholic Church nor did I know any Catholics per se, but after reading i became uncomfortably convinced that it sounded pretty Catholic and it was not what I believed as an Evangelical. My question was; How could the earliest Christians already have it wrong when they were discipled by the Apostles themselves and how did we evangelicals get it right 1600 years later? Who is right because someone is wrong.

Paragraph 2: The word Transubstantiation was a word invented to describe the change in the elements when Christ said "This is His Body". The Word Transsubstantiation is not a biblical term, but then again neither is Trinity so your argument is voided. These are terms invented to describe a biblical and apostolic truth. Although the element's accidentals remain as bread and wine there is a mystical change that took place. Your idea that a person has to have faith to be baptised is not only not a correct reading of the scriptures it has no historic basis. For Paul was clear that baptism replaced circumcission(You only circumcize infants). Historically, infants were always baptized. This is why Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Reformed, Catholics and Orthodox all baptized infants. Later Christian sects like baptists do not. For their's is too the Kingdom of God and you must be born again through water and spirit. Jn 3:5 even children.less

The Christian faith in the first century vs. the 4th. -Most were all Jews with a strong group of Gentiles vs. almost all Gentiles -All believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist -All baptized babies -Baptism was not a symbol, but actually washed away your sins and you were born again in Christ. -1st century had Apostles, Bishops, Priests and Deacons vs. 4th century all the Apost...more

The Christian faith in the first century vs. the 4th.
-Most were all Jews with a strong group of Gentiles vs. almost all Gentiles
-All believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist
-All baptized babies
-Baptism was not a symbol, but actually washed away your sins and you were born again in Christ.
-1st century had Apostles, Bishops, Priests and Deacons vs. 4th century all the Apostles had died so the only hierarchy left with Apostolic authority was Bishops who oversaw Priests and Deacons.
-While Mary was still alive she was honored as all generations shall call her blessed vs. in the 4th century where Christians prayed to her and gave her honor and devotion.
-Worship was called Missa or Mass in English(means to be sent out)
-Saints were venerated who had died and their bones were kept by churches as relics to honor.
-If you were not Catholic meaning going to a church that was founded by an Apostle then you were Christian. Period.
-Christians believed in our sins being purged after death basing herself on scripture and oral tradition: Purgatory later named.
-Everyone from the beginng confessed their sins to a Priest or Bishop in front of the whole community or in private and the Priest or Bishop would offer "absolution" from their binding and loosing authority granted by Christ.
-The sign of the cross is how all Christians began prayer.

This was the church of the 1st century and of the 4th. The only difference is that in the 4th Constantine made it Legal to be Christian and they were not killed or hunted down like dogs. It was still the same church with the same beliefs.less

Point one: if we were on a desert Island together praying, then yes Jesus is present with us. It is not the same as the Eucharist transforming into the body and blood of the Lord. We would need a Priest with Apostolic authority to "Do this in memory of me".To think coconut milk and fish could suffice for our worship is relativistic at best. It would be like baptizing someone in Coffee instead of f...more

Point one: if we were on a desert Island together praying, then yes Jesus is present with us. It is not the same as the Eucharist transforming into the body and blood of the Lord. We would need a Priest with Apostolic authority to "Do this in memory of me".To think coconut milk and fish could suffice for our worship is relativistic at best. It would be like baptizing someone in Coffee instead of free flowing water if we couldn't escape Starbucks. We can still worship the Lord in prayer and song, but would not be able to participate in communion which is the pinnacle of worship for Christians.

Point two:I've been to seminary and studied Christian history from an evangelical and Protestant perspective. There is not one seminary that would agree with you. Your terms are also contemporary; when you say RCC. Paul and Peter founded the Roman Church; ergo, the Roman Church has always existed. See the book of Romans. The Roman church founded by Paul and Peter was one of many churches founded making up the Catholic or Universal Church of Christ. All these churches were Catholic, some were Ephesian, Corinthian and Roman but they all shared the same faith. In the book by Justo Gonzalez, a Protestant theologian, the Catholic Church grew out of the Way by the year 60-70AD. The Way became the Catholic Church. What the Church believed in 60AD is the same that they believed in the 4th century, so your start date is flawed. The Roman Church or more properly called the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church was the Church with preeminance among all other churches from the very beginning.

Third point: The Trinity and the duality of Christ nature being fully divine and fully human at the same time is accepted by many evangelicals because we agree with the Catholic Church's interpretation of scripture. Scripture are not explicit on the Trinity or the duality of Christ natures, so the implicit nature in the scriptures had to be drawn out to fight against heresies in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.less

Good, I'm glad you believe in these things. I did ask since I want to know if we are on the same page. Since the Trinity and duality of Christ natures are not explicit in Scripture why do you accept them since it was the authority of the Catholic Church that defined these doctrines as binding on all Christians. My dad's church was Evangelical-non-denominational with Arminian roots, while my Gr...more

Good, I'm glad you believe in these things. I did ask since I want to know if we are on the same page. Since the Trinity and duality of Christ natures are not explicit in Scripture why do you accept them since it was the authority of the Catholic Church that defined these doctrines as binding on all Christians.

My dad's church was Evangelical-non-denominational with Arminian roots, while my Grandfather's church is evangelical with more Calvinistic roots. A few things caught my eye while I was in seminary studying to be a pastor; that the New Testament I love was defined by the Catholic Church so she must have authority to do so, all the major tenents of the Christian faith were defined by this same church, Christ promised to be with His church always-never to leave it-guide it into all Truth-that it would never fail. So, to think any Reformer could Reform the church without staying within God's church is unbiblical, since starting your own gig is unbiblical too. For so called Restorationists like some Baptists, Mormons to think the whole church went apostate is also unbiblical, since Christ is God and He promised to be with His church always and that His church would never fail. There is no discussion of some remnant either restoring the church in scripture, so any restorationist movement is also unbiblical.less

Scripture doesn't support your view that only adults are baptized. Paul compares baptism as the new circumcission. Without Baptism you are not a member of the body of Christ, you are not born again-regenerate in Christ. Although, infant baptism is implicit and not explicit in scripture since scripture only says baptizing entire families. One could assume an infant especially based on what Paul ...more

Scripture doesn't support your view that only adults are baptized. Paul compares baptism as the new circumcission. Without Baptism you are not a member of the body of Christ, you are not born again-regenerate in Christ.

Although, infant baptism is implicit and not explicit in scripture since scripture only says baptizing entire families. One could assume an infant especially based on what Paul wrote. What fills in the blanks is Tradition. How did the earliest Christians understand dying with Christ and being born again in Christ? They baptized babies unanimously. In fact, the earliest writing about infant baptism was concerning whether the Church should baptize infants on the day of their birth or on the 8th day as it is done with circumcission.

Not baptizing babies is a contemporary view of scripture with no apostolic or scriptural support.less

I believe many of these numbers to be inflated. When I joined the Catholic Church from being an Evangelical pastor in my father's church last Easter, I research some very unique information. Each church counts people differently.That is the problem. If we were all on the same page, that would help. Baptists and evangelicals only count those members who have been baptized as adults, while Cathol...more

I believe many of these numbers to be inflated. When I joined the Catholic Church from being an Evangelical pastor in my father's church last Easter, I research some very unique information.

Each church counts people differently.That is the problem. If we were all on the same page, that would help. Baptists and evangelicals only count those members who have been baptized as adults, while Catholics, Reformation Protestants and Orthodox consider Children members of the Kingdom of God through infant baptism.

If there are 1 Million Catholics in an area, then there are probably about 700,000 active Catholics. Active means going to church either each Sunday, twice a month, once a month, few times per year or Christmas and Easter. Of those 700,000 Catholics there are probably just over 300,000 registered families. So, 1.3 of all Catholics are unchurched and if they are not attending another church, then they may be unsaved too.

One thing is true being the largest Christian group and the largest Religion in th world. The Catholic Church is the largest and the second largest church in the world is ex-Catholics who attend other Christian churches.

I think all these numbers are a bit inflated for every group, because I so rarely see people who are totally sold out to Christ.less

I look forward to our dialogue. I will also be interested whether you believe in the Trinity, Incarnation of Christ, two natures of Christ, since these are all foundational doctrines defined by the Catholic Church that most Christians if not all accept. I look forward to a fruitful conversation where God may receive all the Glory. Peace be with you.

Muggleborn, when did you lose your faith in Christ being present in the Eucharist. I mean, if you can believe he can walk on water, rise from the dead, heal the lame and sick, multiply the loaves and fish and create the world out of nothing, then why can't you believe Jesus on His Word that the bread is truly His flesh? If Jesus can do all these former miracles and you don't know how he did the...more

Muggleborn, when did you lose your faith in Christ being present in the Eucharist. I mean, if you can believe he can walk on water, rise from the dead, heal the lame and sick, multiply the loaves and fish and create the world out of nothing, then why can't you believe Jesus on His Word that the bread is truly His flesh?

If Jesus can do all these former miracles and you don't know how he did them, then why can't you believe he can transform mere bread into His body and wine into His blood. If you can believe one of these miracles you should be able to believe them all would be the logical conclusion, right?

A fair question to ask you that I asked myself, "will you go away with the other disciples who left Jesus because they could not handle this teaching or will you be like Peter and just trust and follow the Word of the Lord?"

As an evangelical I realized that if I got together with my dad and granddad who are both pastors, we could all exegete many scriptures differently and yet we all three believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit lead into all Truth or All confusion? Is the Holy Spirit the God of Truth or of errror? I realized as I read the scriptures that the Apostles had Christ authority over God's people. You didn't just start your own church after reading the scriptures, you had to have received authority from someone who had authority. Without Apostolic authority, you will be guaranteed to fall into errror in faith and morals. This doesn't mean the apostles or their successors were impeccable either, it just means that when teaching with Christ authority they were lead into all Truth.less

Part two: Your premise does not follow. I don't base myself on just what others believe, I base myself as does the Catholic Church on Scripture and Tradition. Before those words in john or Matt were ever written, they were said. The oral tradition carried it forward and all believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. When the New Testament was canonized by the Catholic Church ...more

Part two:

Your premise does not follow. I don't base myself on just what others believe, I base myself as does the Catholic Church on Scripture and Tradition. Before those words in john or Matt were ever written, they were said. The oral tradition carried it forward and all believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

When the New Testament was canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th century by Pope Damasus, there were three areas of authority for a Christian; Church's teaching authority basing herself on scripture and tradition. The Scriptures point literally to the bread and wine being truly Christ through some sort of transformation. It is a mystery and like Peter, we accept it and follow Him. Scripture first, then Tradition clarifies exacltly how to interpret with the Holy Spirit who leads His church into all Truth.

In the beginning, Jesus founded one church and no other church existed or was being lead into all truth. As a former evangelical pastor, I thought the church began with Luther, The vast array of doctrines accepted as core to being a Christian were defined by the Catholic Church. The Bible I love was canonized by the Catholic Church and actually given the name"Bible-from Biblos Lebanon". In the eleventh and twelth century grammar was put in the Bible. To put grammar in, you have to know how it was said. Tradition fills in the blanks here.

The Catholic Church was given authority by Christ through the Apostles. These apostles gave their authority to Bishops and so on and so on. As a Christian I dutifully exegete the scriptures and search for truth guided by the holy spirit, but my interpretation is not infallible or guaranteed to be free from error on God's Holy Word. So, I search the scriptures and then I search the earliest fathers of the church who were directly discipled by the Apostles and see how they lived out these teachings. It is how they lived out and understood the Word of God, is how I understand it best. The New Testament is God's Holy Word and it was entrusted to Apostles, then to Bishops.

Scripture, Tradition and teaching authority of the Church is how we infallibly interpret God's Words. For no prophesy of scripture is open to private interpretation.

Peace.less

A very fair and reasonable question. Maybe you like to follow Socratic or Aristotelian philosophy to set up your premise, so let us see what is valid. Scripture first: John 6:35-71 if you exegete these scriptures you will notice a few things; one that Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life in you and you won't be raised up on the last day(paraphrase). Some d...more

A very fair and reasonable question. Maybe you like to follow Socratic or Aristotelian philosophy to set up your premise, so let us see what is valid.

Scripture first: John 6:35-71 if you exegete these scriptures you will notice a few things; one that Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life in you and you won't be raised up on the last day(paraphrase). Some disciples could not stand for this because it was canibalism to them. But these were not regular people, they were already Christians and believed in Jesus. And yet they walked away from Jesus. Jesus did not run after them, but rather compounded it and said you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. Jesus lost many disciples that day, because they could not believe and trust His Words of eternal life. Peter on the other hand, just trusted and believed. He didn't understand how and it didn't matter. He simply had enough faith in trust in Christ.

Mt 26:22ff, Mk 14:22ff, Lk 22:17ff the Eucharist is Instituted(Eucharistia-Greek for Thanksgiving) This is my body, This is my Blood. The Apostles took what Jesus said Literally. We know this because that is what was taught to Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.All the early church fathers were unanimous.

1Cor 10:16 Eucharist=participation in Christ Body and Blood
1 Cor 11:23-29 receiving unworthily= guilt of the body and blood. (There is only guilt if the body and blood are truly Christ and not just a symbol.)

Ex 12:8, 46 Paschal Lamb had to be eaten. Jn 1:29 Jesus called the Lamb of God
1Cor 5:7 Jesus called"Paschal Lamb who has been sacrificed"

Scripture clearly points to a mystery of Christ being present in the bread and wine. Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Christians and Assyrians, Armenians and Ethiopeans all who have the oldest Apostolic churches all believe the exact same thing on the Eucharist. It is truly Jesus and we take Him literally at His Word because that is what He said and that is how everyone understood what he said without question. With the Reformation, the Eucharist doctrine gets watered down; Anglicans believe in a true presence, Lutherans believe in a consubstantial presence, Reformed believe in a symbolic presence. Follow to the anabaptist who left the Reformation churches and it gets even more watered down to merely a symbol and does nothing for the person.less

Prophet, I am happy to entertain any question or comment you have. Muggle born is civil and charitable in posting, so I respond back to that. If God is in you, then you will ask your question or comment with the virtue of charity that is Christ gift. Faith, Hope and Love but the greatest of these is love.

Godslove, Don't you remember what God did to Sodom? Sodomites will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Period. They are called to Chastity. This is a cross they must bear. Everyone is given a cross for our sanctification. Some have physical abnormalities, some emotional, some are addictions. For every cross you suffer, God is there to help you overcome it because it was the cross he conquered for y...more

Godslove,

Don't you remember what God did to Sodom? Sodomites will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Period. They are called to Chastity. This is a cross they must bear. Everyone is given a cross for our sanctification. Some have physical abnormalities, some emotional, some are addictions. For every cross you suffer, God is there to help you overcome it because it was the cross he conquered for you and I.

You could print out a million associations of man that say it is ok to be gay. We are not judged by Man but by God. I'll take the narrow path. Wide is the path that leads to HeII.less

Muggle, I didn't see where you posted something again. I'm happy to answer it here, could you repost it? Thanks and Peace.

Our Church takes the stance on chastity because it is what is true and right, not because it is popular. The Catholic Church took a stand against Slavery 200 years before Protestants did, we took the stand against abortion before Protestants and we took the stand against inVitro, euthanasia and embryonic stem cell first as well. The minority of devout Catholics and non-Catholic Christians will ...more

Our Church takes the stance on chastity because it is what is true and right, not because it is popular. The Catholic Church took a stand against Slavery 200 years before Protestants did, we took the stand against abortion before Protestants and we took the stand against inVitro, euthanasia and embryonic stem cell first as well.

The minority of devout Catholics and non-Catholic Christians will listen because they hear their Shepherds and know God's voice while the majority will listen to the voice of their god-the devil.less

Catechism of the Catholic Church Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scriptur...more

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.less

The real Saint Valentine was a Catholic Priest in the mid 200's. He died for marrying couples which was against the law in a Christian ceremony and for teaching the Gospel. He even tried to convert the Emperor and died for it. He was a Christian martyr who loved God more than himself. http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=159