Muggleborn, Great question on the genuflecting. You will see in scripture where the soldiers genuflect as an insult to Christ. Genuflecting is what you do before a King, whether secular or divine. Genuflecting to the King of Kings should be expected by us. Why do Catholics genuflect before the Tabernacle or the Blessed Sacrament(consecrated host)? Great question! I didn't like that either or...more

Muggleborn,

Great question on the genuflecting. You will see in scripture where the soldiers genuflect as an insult to Christ. Genuflecting is what you do before a King, whether secular or divine. Genuflecting to the King of Kings should be expected by us.

Why do Catholics genuflect before the Tabernacle or the Blessed Sacrament(consecrated host)? Great question! I didn't like that either or understand it before I researched it. Once the host is consecrated Catholics believe it truly becomes the real and actual presence of Christ; body, blood, soul and divinity. This is my body, this is my blood. I always understood that to be symbolic, but again that came from modern contemporary eyes. I read the early church fathers and you can see even in the 1st and 2nd century where the consecrated host was adored. Why? Well, if you believe something to be truly Jesus' body and blood, soul and divinity then worshipping it is worshipping Christ.

The Early Church unanimously believed that the host was truly Jesus Christ, although the elements remain bread and wine to the touch and taste. The transformation is a miracle. Do we understand how it transforms? No. Do we have to understand it to believe? No. I don't have to understand how the earth was made, only that God did it. The early church believed Christ literally when he said this is my body, and Catholics have never changed that belief. The only ones who didn't believe were the disciples who left him in John 6:66-72. Notice Jesus didn't call them back and tell them no it is just a symbol. Jesus lost disciples because he was talking literally. Peter, like me, would say we don't understand Lord but where shall we go when you Lord have the Words of eternal life.

To worship the Blessed Sacrament is to worship Christ.less

And no one worships the Blessed Virgin Mary either, Muggle born. Don't judge on the exteriors since you may not understand or be familiar with an ancient or non-american customs that surround it. Bowing to one another in Japan is normal and shows honor. Bowing to the Queen of England or kneeling before them is customary and while it make look like worship, it is certainly not. Since the days of...more

And no one worships the Blessed Virgin Mary either, Muggle born. Don't judge on the exteriors since you may not understand or be familiar with an ancient or non-american customs that surround it.

Bowing to one another in Japan is normal and shows honor. Bowing to the Queen of England or kneeling before them is customary and while it make look like worship, it is certainly not. Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.less

I love how encouraging you are. The point I made was these objects were made and were images of things in the sea and on the earth. They were "Likeness" in image. While Catholics may bow or kneel as we honor past saints, you see it as worship. When evangelicals fall down in front of charismatic pastors, many catholics see that as worship. When evangelicals put their bible on a stand in a churc...more

I love how encouraging you are. The point I made was these objects were made and were images of things in the sea and on the earth. They were "Likeness" in image.

While Catholics may bow or kneel as we honor past saints, you see it as worship.
When evangelicals fall down in front of charismatic pastors, many catholics see that as worship. When evangelicals put their bible on a stand in a church or in their house and get on their knees before it, many catholics think you worship a book.

I think it is important to understand each other's culture and customs and judge their intent, rather than the superficials since we all have biased eyes. Rather, look on one another with love and let each other explain what they are doing. If a person worships a book or a statue, then we must hold them accountable in Christian Charity. If their intent is only to honor something or someone who or what is dear to them, and they only worship God then take them at their word. Their heart will show their fruit.less

Revran, the caliber of terms you use are not very charitable and show a low tolerance for friendly christian debate. No one worshipped the cherubim and no one worships statues of the Virgin Mary or other saints either. Intent of the person's heart is everything. I was an assoc pastor, son of a pastor and grandson of a pastor and I hold a Masters of Theology. I contend that based on your syn...more

Revran, the caliber of terms you use are not very charitable and show a low tolerance for friendly christian debate. No one worshipped the cherubim and no one worships statues of the Virgin Mary or other saints either.

Intent of the person's heart is everything.

I was an assoc pastor, son of a pastor and grandson of a pastor and I hold a Masters of Theology. I contend that based on your syntax that you have never had any formal education in theology, whether that be at the graduate or undergraduate level. I point this out because I do know God's Holy Word, have studied it in the original Greek with some of the best Protestant and Evangelical scholars.

I would encourage you to first be charitable, then seek to research items in a loving and thoughtful way. Even if you and I disagree, there are those who are not saved on this blog who may see our actions and not choose Christ as their savior because of how we treat one another. Peace be with you!less

Muggleborn and Online, Intent is everything and I was adding to what Chris said. When I first was considering the Catholic Church, I actually researched the Reformed Tradition first then thought of being Lutheran or maybe even Anglican or Orthodox. Anything but being Catholic was my motto. I did not want to be Catholic at all, especially because of the way some Catholics act in front of Icons o...more

Muggleborn and Online, Intent is everything and I was adding to what Chris said.

When I first was considering the Catholic Church, I actually researched the Reformed Tradition first then thought of being Lutheran or maybe even Anglican or Orthodox. Anything but being Catholic was my motto. I did not want to be Catholic at all, especially because of the way some Catholics act in front of Icons or statues. It was so foreign to me as a bible believing born again Christian.

What I had to do is get some different perspective glasses and research the origins of these devotions. What I found was that until the printing press the bible was rare and too expensive to own and almost 70-80% of all people couldn't read. The Catholic Church created churches that through their windows, statues and icons taught the life of Christ so that anyone could get the main tenents of the faith. While kneeling to honor someone today is foreign, it was not so even 100 years ago. Kneeling and bowing is a formal way of honoring someone, whether it is them living or a statue or picture of them. Bowing and kneeling before icons, statues was customary practice to show honor to that person eventhough that person has passed.

I had to judge this Catholic practice with older eyes that gave perspective. Catholic practices and those that are still customary in many Protestant countries like England, Netherlands, Germany, have been common place for hundreds of years before Protestantism.

Are there excesses sometimes with statues and icons; Yes! Were there excesses in my own denomination with prosperity gospel, so called healings, speaking in tongues; Yes!

Let us all try to understand each other's culture, prune ourselves so that our Hearts shine in our love for Christ and honor those Saints appropriately who did the will of Christ.less

Thanks for posting that website, so all can see the Catholic Church has the whole version in Exodus on their official website, and the version in Deutronomy and then Catechetical Kliff note version for memorization. What this shows is the Catholic Church uses the full version as her guide, and has shorter versions for memorization puposes to get the main theme. Thanks! I'm so happy to be cat...more

Thanks for posting that website, so all can see the Catholic Church has the whole version in Exodus on their official website, and the version in Deutronomy and then Catechetical Kliff note version for memorization.

What this shows is the Catholic Church uses the full version as her guide, and has shorter versions for memorization puposes to get the main theme.

Thanks! I'm so happy to be catholic!less

Isn't it interesting that God in Exodus says not to make ANYGRAVEN images in Ex 20:4-5, then in Ex 25 God demands making two cherubim of beaten Gold, then in Numbers 21:8-9 Moses is required to make a bronze Serpent & Put it on a pole, then in 1Kings the temple had engraved cherubim, trees, flowers, bronze oxen, lions and pomegranates. So, context would help. It is ok to make images and statues...more

Isn't it interesting that God in Exodus says not to make ANYGRAVEN images in Ex 20:4-5, then in Ex 25 God demands making two cherubim of beaten Gold, then in Numbers 21:8-9 Moses is required to make a bronze Serpent & Put it on a pole, then in 1Kings the temple had engraved cherubim, trees, flowers, bronze oxen, lions and pomegranates.

So, context would help. It is ok to make images and statues as long as you don't worship them. This is what the Catholic Church has taught since the beginning and this is what the Bible has taught too. Perspective is a wonderful thing if you read the whole bible and get a historical context.less

ChipL, I am a new convert to the Catholic faith. I was a third generation evangelical pastor and came into the Church last Easter. Many of the evangelical posters on this blog do not care to research anything, unlike myself. The more research you do, the more Catholic you will become. You see many here are irrational and have never taken any basic course on theology, so their inablity to conver...more

ChipL, I am a new convert to the Catholic faith. I was a third generation evangelical pastor and came into the Church last Easter. Many of the evangelical posters on this blog do not care to research anything, unlike myself. The more research you do, the more Catholic you will become.

You see many here are irrational and have never taken any basic course on theology, so their inablity to converse on theology is their fortress of ignorance. They would rather feel safe there, than know the Truth.less

So what makes something graven for you is anything that looks like worship, even though the intent of the person is not worship only honoring. So, the intent of the person doesn't matter then, only the exteriors? The internal accounts for nothing then? Follow your logic online and you will see your premise isn't valid. Intent is everything, as there are many people who wear clothes that...more

So what makes something graven for you is anything that looks like worship, even though the intent of the person is not worship only honoring.

So, the intent of the person doesn't matter then, only the exteriors? The internal accounts for nothing then?

Follow your logic online and you will see your premise isn't valid.

Intent is everything, as there are many people who wear clothes that look holy but their insides are not. If you judge only the exterior of a man, then that is no different from being a racist or ethnocentrist.

Christ will judge our hearts not the externals.less

Great idea!

You obviously didn't read this article. This App calls to mind your sins and helps you to give yourself a good examination of conscience. Most people in today's soceity don't know what is morally good or evil, so this App tells them so they can identify what sins sepparate them from God and with prayer and God's grace overcome these areas. Afterall, we are a new creation in Christ so we must b...more

You obviously didn't read this article. This App calls to mind your sins and helps you to give yourself a good examination of conscience. Most people in today's soceity don't know what is morally good or evil, so this App tells them so they can identify what sins sepparate them from God and with prayer and God's grace overcome these areas.

Afterall, we are a new creation in Christ so we must become Holy. I see this App as being very helpful.less

You cannot be a Christian and think there is nothing wrong with homosexual activity. It is an abomination. READ YOUR BIBLE! Now, those with same sex attraction are called to chastity and that is a cross they must endure. Telling gays that their action is sinful is less harmful then letting them go on there merry way sinning and going to HEII.

I believe God's word to be inerrant, both written and oral. So, I believe as does the majority of Christians that we must read the scriptures daily and where we do not understand must seek the authority of the church since that is who the gift of the Holy Spirit being lead into all truth is. Scriptures are sufficient, but not the sole rule of Christian faith. The very first Christian Council of...more

I believe God's word to be inerrant, both written and oral. So, I believe as does the majority of Christians that we must read the scriptures daily and where we do not understand must seek the authority of the church since that is who the gift of the Holy Spirit being lead into all truth is.

Scriptures are sufficient, but not the sole rule of Christian faith. The very first Christian Council of Jerusalem shows they didn't rely on scriptures to make a decision, but rather the authority of Peter's dream and they all agreed. God gave authority to his Word and to His Apostles. Without Apostles and their successors it is likely your church will fall by way of improperly interpreting the Word of God.less

Scripture is sufficient, certain and infallible. Amen. The problem is who has the authority to interpret? Many Christians interpret the scriptures and see how homosexuality is ok or that abortion is ok, then who is right Online? Especially when both say they have the gift of the Holy Spirit guiding them?

Msn, I always thought that was interesting and even asked a professor of mine, that if we evangelicals believe sola scriptura then why didn't the Apostles base their first council on it? Just shows you that sola scriptura is a modern man made invention to take authority away from God's church and make everyone their own pope. You notice that in the New Testament that if people disagreed with e...more

Msn,
I always thought that was interesting and even asked a professor of mine, that if we evangelicals believe sola scriptura then why didn't the Apostles base their first council on it? Just shows you that sola scriptura is a modern man made invention to take authority away from God's church and make everyone their own pope.

You notice that in the New Testament that if people disagreed with each they didn't break communion with each other but rather called a council to discuss it?
Thanks for nothing Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. I guess you knew if your views were put to the test by the Holy Spirit in a council of the Church you would come out on the wrong side, so you sought disunity and rather started your own church which is completely unbibilical.less

As a former evangelical pastor, I can tell you a few things; that the most important things I had as an evangelical all originated from the Catholic Church. Scripture, New Testament came from God through the Catholic Church who defined it. Trinity, defined by the Catholic Church Christ is both fully human and fully divine; ergo, a divine person from the Catholic Church. We are saved by...more

As a former evangelical pastor, I can tell you a few things; that the most important things I had as an evangelical all originated from the Catholic Church.

Scripture, New Testament came from God through the Catholic Church who defined it.

Trinity, defined by the Catholic Church

Christ is both fully human and fully divine; ergo, a divine person from the Catholic Church.

We are saved by Grace through Faith, and our works show if we have faith. If Faith alone is true, then our actions do not matter whether good or bad and I believe they do and so did the Apostles and their successors.less

Online, that is faulty logic since you accept things that are not explicit in scripture. The Trinity is a great example of this, that over time it was more fully understood. The canon of the New Testament took over 400 years to define and yet you accept this canon. Your logic also falls short since one could say you are not Online, since you are different than when you were born. You are still t...more

Online, that is faulty logic since you accept things that are not explicit in scripture.
The Trinity is a great example of this, that over time it was more fully understood. The canon of the New Testament took over 400 years to define and yet you accept this canon. Your logic also falls short since one could say you are not Online, since you are different than when you were born. You are still the same person, just as the Catholic Church is still the same Church founded by Christ, yet you have grown, matured into adulthood as the Catholic Church has grown and matured. An acorn looks very different from the Tree it turns into, but it is still the same essence.

My point is that doctrine develops over time as the Holy Spirit guides, but that the original Apostolic deposit is always the same just better understood over time by the official interpreter-the Church.

A couple of examples; The Church of Rome-Roman Catholicism has existed since Peter and Paul established this Church. Many other churches were also established and they were all in communion with each other. They had the same faith.
In the first 100 years;
-There was no bible, and no New Testament
-All babies were baptised.
-Christians prayed to the Saints who died; like Mary, Peter, Paul, Thomas, James, etc.
-Seven Sacraments were shared by all Churches
-The Bishop of Rome had special primacy of honor
-Relics of Saints were kept and venerated
-They believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist
-They celebrated the Mass/Divine Liturgy
-You couldn't go out and start a church, you must be with your bishop who has Apostolic succession.
-all Christians went to Priests or Bishops for confession mostly in public and over time in private because Priests had the power to forgive sins in Jesus name.
-Many priests chose celibacy to immitate Christ and Paul's suggestion
-The only offices of ordained were; Bishop, Priest and Deacon
-They met on Sunday instead of Saturday
-They believed that we are saved by God's grace, through active faith
-They didn't believe in bible alone since there were no bibles for 400 more years and they didn't believe in scripture alone either, since that would be only the Old Testament.
-They believed Bishops had authority over them to interpret God's Holy Word, either written or in Tradition.

This is just a simple observation by reading the early church fathers. Sounds pretty Catholic to me.less

When secular values and culture transforms your church body, then this is what we can expect from our children. When Christian values and culture transforms your country's culture, then we will expect Jesus to be the only choice for children. Jesus demands more from us! Stand firm!

Normal kids, ah you mean kids who are going to HeII right? I want my future kids to be extremely abnormal and love Jesus more than his parents, president, country or anyone or anything. JESUS is the ideal role model for everyone.

Wait Children are being abused in the UMC? It must be because of their celibate Priests. Ah ha, they don't have celibate Priests. Interesting. I pray for all the children who have been abused by all clergy.