Jar, You may be a pastor, but I doubt one that has gone to seminary based on how you communicate your thoughts. You seem very comfortable at attacking which is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, nor do you use terms that would lead me to believe that you have actually formally studied the scriptures in an academic environment. Actually, the Catholic Church started baptizing infants 40 -50 years ...more

Jar,

You may be a pastor, but I doubt one that has gone to seminary based on how you communicate your thoughts. You seem very comfortable at attacking which is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, nor do you use terms that would lead me to believe that you have actually formally studied the scriptures in an academic environment.

Actually, the Catholic Church started baptizing infants 40 -50 years before scriptures were written, so you are wrong. The Practice of infant baptism was universal 300 years before the New Testament was canonized. While that scripture suggests infants may be a part of "whole Households", what confirms it is HISTORY. Historical writings of the Apostles successors confirm this was standard practice. So, the Catholics practice infant baptism because this is what the Apostles taught.

Only fundamentalists from extremists churches think the Catholic Church is totally apostate or the harlot of babylon, while the rest of us Christians do not believe that at all. There will be a church that is apostate, but it won't be the Catholic Church. Also, why would the Catholic Church even include Revelation if it pointed to them to be apostate?

Also, the Vatican is on one hill NOT seven. The Vatican hill is across the Tiber River. Rome is on 7 hills, not the Vatican as the Vatican is outside. Most Protestant Scholars agree that Rome could have been the anti-Christ under Emperor Nero. Caesar Nero adds up to 666 and he demanded worship and killed Christians. He may have been the anti-Christ.

If the anti-christ is still yet to come, we must be prayerful for all Christians to come together as one so that many may be saved.less

Nice one Blackshoe! My retreat is going great by the way, and I hope you are having a blest weekend. I am learning about all the many Catholic Saints in the first few centuries after the Apostles who were martyred to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Amazing people! I pray for many holy men and women of God to serve in public office so we can overturn Roe V. Wade and make sure gay marriage...more

Nice one Blackshoe! My retreat is going great by the way, and I hope you are having a blest weekend.

I am learning about all the many Catholic Saints in the first few centuries after the Apostles who were martyred to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Amazing people!

I pray for many holy men and women of God to serve in public office so we can overturn Roe V. Wade and make sure gay marriage never gets legal.

"Commit your works to the Lord And your thoughts will be established" Proverbs 16:3less

Just so you know, My Gradfather's Church baptizes infants and my dad's church dedicates. They both disagree with each other on this most important issue, but since there is no hierarchy to say who is right within Protestantism then they just agree to disagree and mutter under their breaths that the other is wrong. In the Catholic system, if there is a disagreement on scripture they come toge...more

Just so you know, My Gradfather's Church baptizes infants and my dad's church dedicates.

They both disagree with each other on this most important issue, but since there is no hierarchy to say who is right within Protestantism then they just agree to disagree and mutter under their breaths that the other is wrong.

In the Catholic system, if there is a disagreement on scripture they come together in an ecumenical council like the Apostles did in Jerusalem and they make a final decision based on how the Holy Spirit guides them into all truth. The decision is final and will never change. Kind of nice to have absolute truth in a world of relativism.less

Believer, A lot of what you wrote is illogical, so I'm not really sure how to respond to your train of thought. When Jesus ascended to Heaven, His Apostles were left in Charge. No one started their own church without the Apostles permission, and no one taught different beliefs. The Apostles made doctrines, legislated, disciplined and were in charge of the people of God. These Apostles had...more

Believer,

A lot of what you wrote is illogical, so I'm not really sure how to respond to your train of thought.

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, His Apostles were left in Charge. No one started their own church without the Apostles permission, and no one taught different beliefs. The Apostles made doctrines, legislated, disciplined and were in charge of the people of God.

These Apostles had Christ authority. The Apostles gave their authority to their successors and people followed this hierarchy doing nothing without their approval. Yes, God inspires these men to act on his behalf but they are not puppets as they have free will. "Whatever you bind on earth or loose is bound and loosed in Heaven." "Who's sins you forgive, they are forgiven, who sins you retain they are retained".

Now, that is authority. You just don't like the fact they have it.

Online,

The Spirit lead the Apostles and their successors into all Truth as promised in the scriptures. The Catholic Church is this church, so it still retains this promise.

While you conjecture that Catholic beliefs are contrary to scripture in some areas, I will say they are not. So, if I say the scriptures say one thing and you say another, how do we reconcile. The scriptures would suggest that we seek those in authority and let them decide. Problem is those who have authority are Catholic.less

I am thoroughly enjoying my retreat, but thought I would take a few moments to address a few people as a christian courtesy. Jar, I've read your posts and you seem quite unique if you are a pastor since I don't know of too many who swear at people like you have done. Yes, Jesus did say that the repetitious prayers of the pagans was useless and vain. I'm glad He did since these prayers we...more

I am thoroughly enjoying my retreat, but thought I would take a few moments to address a few people as a christian courtesy.

Jar,

I've read your posts and you seem quite unique if you are a pastor since I don't know of too many who swear at people like you have done.

Yes, Jesus did say that the repetitious prayers of the pagans was useless and vain. I'm glad He did since these prayers were useless since they were to false gods and not to Jesus. When I pray the Rosary, or any prayer for that matter to God it is because I love him. My prayers are efficatious because he loves hearing our prayers over and over if they are done with love, like when I asked over and over the same prayer to heal my mother of cancer.

Repetition is not the issue, it is what and how you pray and who you are praying to that matters. I love saying the Our Father many times a day and I'm sure our Lord loves hearing it since my heart is praying with adoration, supplication and thanksgiving.

If I kiss the ring of the Pope, it is out of love for him and his office. It is not worship, but rather a sign of love within Catholic Culture. It probably seems odd since Evangelicals don't do that sort of thing, but we do hug and kiss each other which is our culture. I sometimes kiss a picture of my family too, because I miss them being away at Seminary. Rings, pictures and other objects are fine to kiss if it is meant with love. I kiss my bible too, if you should know, after I read it.

I am no longer Pastoring at my dad's Church. My Dad thought it would be better if I stepped down from ministry. My father and Grandfather are the Pastors of two churches where I am from and while there is a board of elders, I stepped down before it went that far.

I love being an Evangelical Pastor, and I will love being an Evangelical Catholic Pastor too, praise God.

One of the greatest things about becoming a Catholic is knowing that the Catholic interpretation of scripture matches the earliest Christians taught by the Apostles. I love that consistency of 2000 years and knowing that my faith is Apostolic, and not contemporary.

Peace.less

Blackshoe, Have a nice weekend. Keep me in your prayers as I will pray for you. I am leaving for my first retreat weekend exploring becoming a Catholic Priest. As an evangelical going to convert this is very exciting. I will discern whether the Priesthood is my thing or becoming a Deacon or who knows. I will go where God leads me, as I put my whole Trust in the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Pea...more

Blackshoe,

Have a nice weekend. Keep me in your prayers as I will pray for you.

I am leaving for my first retreat weekend exploring becoming a Catholic Priest. As an evangelical going to convert this is very exciting. I will discern whether the Priesthood is my thing or becoming a Deacon or who knows.
I will go where God leads me, as I put my whole Trust in the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Peace be with you!less

I'll do my best, thanks Blackshoe. I do believe now that the Catholic Church is correct in its doctrines and morals 100% of the time. Infallibly proclaimed you might say. What the Church proclaims and how it is administered and how people follow is very different things. You left out Nancy Pelosi too. John Kerry and Ted Kennedy were horible proponents of abortion without question. Since I li...more

I'll do my best, thanks Blackshoe.

I do believe now that the Catholic Church is correct in its doctrines and morals 100% of the time. Infallibly proclaimed you might say.

What the Church proclaims and how it is administered and how people follow is very different things. You left out Nancy Pelosi too. John Kerry and Ted Kennedy were horible proponents of abortion without question. Since I live in the Cambridge area, I know of these men all too well.

I heard that Ted had a very heartfelt confession before he died. If so, praise God. His purgatory may feel a lot like Hell, but at least he will be saved as is my hope for everyone.

As an Evangelical conservative and third generation pastor in my family, I have found Catholics like John Kerry and Ted Kennedy have done a far better job serving the poor, the elderly, the homeless and the underpriveledge, and serving the sick than us evangelicals or Republican Catholics. By contrast, Conservative Catholics Like Rick Santorum and Jeb Bush and Evangelicals have done a better job protecting the unborn, the right to life at all stages, and protecting traditional marriage than have the liberals.

Why can't we do everything without partisanship? Why can't we live all of the beatitudes instead of picking and choosing?

I'm not sure I know the answer to this, other than we will all be judged for what we do in this life and I plainly hope to hear,"Well done good and faithful servant". I will simply do what I can and cooperate with God's grace to love all my neighbors.

The practice of the Bishops or Priests giving communion to people like Kerry or Kennedy is a scandal, but it does not fall under infallibility. It is a practice that has flaws because it is people who are sinful that administer the practice.

I can't immagine Ted or John or Nancy really believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist or they would be scared to death receiving it with their voting record. Paul's stern words of warning about taking the Eucharist unworthilly is scary.less

Is this your best example of referring to the Pope? The Pope is not worshipped and nor does he sit on a throne. He does sit on a Chair of authority, just like Moses did. The Pope's chair is a chair of authority, not a throne. Read any of the Pope's books; Jesus of Nazareth, etc. Jesus is the King of Kings and the Head of the Church and the Pope is his Prime Minister who holds the Keys o...more

Is this your best example of referring to the Pope?

The Pope is not worshipped and nor does he sit on a throne. He does sit on a Chair of authority, just like Moses did.

The Pope's chair is a chair of authority, not a throne.
Read any of the Pope's books; Jesus of Nazareth, etc.

Jesus is the King of Kings and the Head of the Church and the Pope is his Prime Minister who holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

My fellow Evangelicals really have a tough time explaining away the Keys.less

So Online, you really don't believe the scriptures then? You don't believe when Jesus spoke to his Apostles that they would be lead into ALL TRUTH? Do you not believe that is possible? Do you not believe that the Apostles and their successor had the power to bind and loose authoritatively? Do you not have enough faith to believe what the scriptures clearly say?

Wilderness, You do realize don't you that passage refers to the Old Testament, since the New had not been written yet? If you think that passage points to sola scriptura, then you are wrong since it would only prove the Old Testament is sufficient and therefore the New Testament would not be. Context can be helpful.

Who is infallible? Peter or you? Peter's successors or you? Were any of us there when Jesus promised his church to be lead into all Truth? No. Then why do we feel like this promise is to everyone? Having one person have final authority is a position of strength for unity, cohesion and clarity of purpose. Having everyone think they have the final authority on interpetation leads only to co...more

Who is infallible?

Peter or you? Peter's successors or you?

Were any of us there when Jesus promised his church to be lead into all Truth? No. Then why do we feel like this promise is to everyone?

Having one person have final authority is a position of strength for unity, cohesion and clarity of purpose. Having everyone think they have the final authority on interpetation leads only to confusion, strife, division and disunity.

Which is more logical?less

Blackshoe, Hi. I know of many Catholics from your generation that had a similar experience. Where they learned the traditions, but didn't gain a saving relationship with Christ. Sad, but true. Today's current younger Catholics know their faith, know Jesus and the traditions of course. These same ex-Catholics became evangelical Christians. Many of them in my grandparents and my father's Churc...more

Blackshoe,

Hi. I know of many Catholics from your generation that had a similar experience. Where they learned the traditions, but didn't gain a saving relationship with Christ. Sad, but true. Today's current younger Catholics know their faith, know Jesus and the traditions of course.

These same ex-Catholics became evangelical Christians. Many of them in my grandparents and my father's Church. With the ability to search the internet, more of these ex-Catholics are coming back home to the Catholic Church in droves. Why? Well, many of their evangelical churches have gone through splits or have made a poor decision on gay marriage or abortion or the church service is being turned into a entertainment fix rather than worship. They turn to the internet and find that their initial misunderstandings of Catholicism was wrong. Some stay evangelical, but many return home because it is truly the only church that stands firm on certain conservative issues.

From an evangelical perspective, I just think they were poorly discipled like you. We have them too in our churches and they bounce around from church to church. Church shopping as I call it.

I think it is ashame when any Catholic or Protestant church doesn't disciple their members well enough. We all have members who are not well educated in the faith or have a saving relationship with Christ.

It would be great if you pursued the Truth with much passion and be lead where Jesus wants you to go. My hunch is you will return to the Catholic Church.

I will be entering full communion with the Catholic Church next Easter and beginning my Seminary classes to become a Priest.less

I actually had an issue when I was first exploring the Catholic faith with Peter being the Rock. Here are some thoughts from my perspective, which is not infallible. The Apostle's name was Simon. Jesus was the first to identify Jesus as the Messiah not on his own human understanding, but rather because God the Father spoke directly to Simon. God the father did not speak to any of the other ...more

I actually had an issue when I was first exploring the Catholic faith with Peter being the Rock.

Here are some thoughts from my perspective, which is not infallible. The Apostle's name was Simon. Jesus was the first to identify Jesus as the Messiah not on his own human understanding, but rather because God the Father spoke directly to Simon.

God the father did not speak to any of the other Apostles in this way, so it is special. God the Father gave a special revelation to Simon alone.

Jesus then blest Simon and renamed him by saying "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my church." I'm not sure if any of you are English majors or have sentence structure knowledge, but it is Peter who is the Rock, not his confession of faith. If it was his confession of faith, then the sentence structure would have been clearly pointing to this. It does not. You denotes Simon, not the confession of faith.

So, sentence structure alone backs up the Catholic claim. Secondly, any time a person in the bible has their name changed it is special and denotes a new mission. Simon's name is changed to Rock-Cephas-Kephas-Petros(male). So, the name change is significant as Jesus does not change anyone else's name. Saul to Paul is not a name change by the way. It is just the christian version of the same name; like Shimon to Simon.

The Catholic position wins on sentence structure, on the signficance of the name change. They also win this arguement because Peter is the first to do everything with authority. Only Peter receives revelation on who Jesus is and to let in the Gentiles into the Church. It is always Peter and the Apostles or Peter and his brothers. Peter is also mentioned 195 times in the Bible more than all the others combined.

Lastly, Peter is the only one Christ prays for to strengthen his faith to keep his brother strong. History also points to a special primacy for Peter among the Apostles.

Yes, Peter is a fellow bishop and a fellow Apostle and presbyter. This does not diminish is primacy, since he hold the final Keys of Authority which is a reference to Is 22.

The Catholic position is objectively much stronger, than the non-Catholic position. If they got this right, then they got other things right too!

I then questioned Purgatory, Priestly confession, Eucharist and Mary. One after another their position is objectively much stronger.less

Steveh20, the football players wear those pads because Americans playing football are much larger and more muscularly developed that Rugby players. You will only find truly muscularly fit Rugby players at the semi-pro levels or higher. Our American Eagles are very muscular, but yet small compared to American Football players and not as fast either. You can't find too many Rugby players who can...more

Steveh20, the football players wear those pads because Americans playing football are much larger and more muscularly developed that Rugby players.

You will only find truly muscularly fit Rugby players at the semi-pro levels or higher. Our American Eagles are very muscular, but yet small compared to American Football players and not as fast either. You can't find too many Rugby players who can run the 40 in 4.2 or 4.4 seconds.less

Wow, calling people names JAR? How very Christian of you. I am an evangelical pastor in seminary who is converting to Catholicism. You attack Chas, why? The Catechism says that the Bishops in communion with the Pope have the authority to interpret scriptures, but that no individual by themselves outside of this authority can infallibly interpet scripture. This is historically consistent fro...more

Wow, calling people names JAR?

How very Christian of you. I am an evangelical pastor in seminary who is converting to Catholicism.

You attack Chas, why? The Catechism says that the Bishops in communion with the Pope have the authority to interpret scriptures, but that no individual by themselves outside of this authority can infallibly interpet scripture. This is historically consistent from the scriptures to present day. The Apostles and their successors have authority, not every joe blow.

If you read your history you will see Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaus, Clement all saying that no scripture is open to private interpretation outside of the living authority of the Catholic Church. These men all knew the Apostles and their direct successors.

I understand how attractive it is to think you are guided into all truth when you read scriptures, but you were never given this gift. The Holy Spirit does guide all Christians when they read, but the gift of "Being led into all Truth" was only given to the immediate leaders of the Church and not for everyone.less

Mike, I'm sorry you don't believe in the True presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Read John 6 in its entirety. You will see in John 6, you are much like Christ disciples who were Jews who could not accept the real presence of Christ in bread and wine. They, like you, didn't accept it in faith and thought it was canabalism. They like you walked away from the True faith. Be more like Pet...more

Mike,

I'm sorry you don't believe in the True presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Read John 6 in its entirety. You will see in John 6, you are much like Christ disciples who were Jews who could not accept the real presence of Christ in bread and wine. They, like you, didn't accept it in faith and thought it was canabalism. They like you walked away from the True faith.

Be more like Peter, and say, "Lord, where shall I go for only you have the Words of eternal life." Accept His Word, Mike and eat His flesh and drink His blood so that you may have life in you and be raised up on the last day.less

In my studying, there were groups who would be today considered Bible alone sects. In fact, these bible alone types are the precursors to Protestantism. They were called the Arians, Montanists, Albigensians, Dontatists, etc. These people did not accept Sacred Tradition and only accepted the scripture they felt were inspired and thus denied; 1. The divinity of Christ 2. Denied the humanity ...more

In my studying, there were groups who would be today considered Bible alone sects.

In fact, these bible alone types are the precursors to Protestantism. They were called the Arians, Montanists, Albigensians, Dontatists, etc. These people did not accept Sacred Tradition and only accepted the scripture they felt were inspired and thus denied;

1. The divinity of Christ
2. Denied the humanity of Christ
3. Denied that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time.
4. Denied the incarnation of God as human.
5. Denied the Trinity.
6. Denied the Holy Spirit was God
7. Denied the Apostles and Bishops had authority
8. Denied their was one God

So, if you were scripture alone in the 1st through 5th century, you would have denied these fundamental beliefs that Christians hold.

By rejecting the historical witness passed down to the Bishops from the Apostles and from Christ originally, called Sacred Tradition, you would always be on the wrong side of orthodoxy if you went by the bible alone.

It was Sacred Tradition, and the authority of the Catholic Church to infallibly interpret the Holy Scriptures that defined Christianity. It was this same Catholic Church that defined what books were scriptures and what were not.

The False teachings of Evangelicalism is showing its fruit; more and more division, no reverence in church, no honor of the sacred, Church services becoming entertainment based, Church songs dishonoring the magnitude of who God is, no liturgy and no sacraments left, immorality rampant, a hierarchy that has no moral compass, etc.

Evangelicalism is falling a part and in the next 10-20 years many of my fellow evangelicals will come home to the Catholic Church because this is the Church where Christ is truly present and where His truth was promised for all time. You will see the strength of Christ through his Catholic Church because it will be the Catholic Church which will be the lone voice for Christianity speaking against the evils of secular society and their immorally weak foundations.less

BigMark, So basically you prefer a Message or bible study on three lines of scripture, than actual worship. I am a third generation pastor, and this is what we are trained to do. Our Sunday services are truly bible studies where you learn about the passages the Pastor decides to preach on. This is not worship. This is bible study. In the Mass, the scriptures are read and then the Priest s...more

BigMark,

So basically you prefer a Message or bible study on three lines of scripture, than actual worship.

I am a third generation pastor, and this is what we are trained to do. Our Sunday services are truly bible studies where you learn about the passages the Pastor decides to preach on. This is not worship. This is bible study.

In the Mass, the scriptures are read and then the Priest summarizes the readings from the OT, NT and Gospel and what they meant in that day and how they affect us today.
This is how the Apostles did it. We then Worship our Lord in the Eucharist, which is the pinnacle of all worship.

In our evangelical sermons, there is no Eucharist and therefore there is no pinnacle of worship. Yes, some of the songs are praising God, but the majority of the Service is "What did I get out of it" centered. In the Protestant/Evangelical mindset it is still "All about me". If preachers don't preach well, then people leave because we have to be entertainers too.

In the Catholic Church, we are not there for a Bible study as that is on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday nights. On Sunday, we are there for one reason, "TO GIVE WORSHIP TO GOD". It is not about what we can get out of it, it is what we can give. You should be doing that for yourself during the week.

It took me the last two years to realize that when I went to Church it was all about what I got out of it. Now, as I become a Catholic it is "All about how I can worship and praise God" or "It is all about Him rather than Me".less

So, I guess that passage that promises the Church to be lead into ALL TRUTH, you don't believe. You of so little faith. If God promises to lead his church into ALL truth, why do you not accept that and believe on His Word? It is actually unbiblical for their to be disagreement, since he is guiding His Church. Disagreement in the beginning is expected, but biblically we have confidence tha...more

So, I guess that passage that promises the Church to be lead into ALL TRUTH, you don't believe.

You of so little faith. If God promises to lead his church into ALL truth, why do you not accept that and believe on His Word?

It is actually unbiblical for their to be disagreement, since he is guiding His Church.

Disagreement in the beginning is expected, but biblically we have confidence that God will lead us into all truth but someone must interpret.

WHO SHALL INTERPRET THEN? Shall we go with Pastors who start their own churches outside of the Apostles, or should we go with Pastors who from the Apostles line?less

Repentance is not just of the mind and in a vacuum, it is of the will. Repentance is a work. So, you get frustrated and now call names? Really mature Believer.