Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:47 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Quecat my good lad,

I am disappointed that you still seem to be missing the mark. The 4 governing orthodox principles you shared, as well as the idea of "three distinct, but inseparable" beings being one God, are all derived from post-apostolic creeds. Need I again share what Peter said, that no prophecy of the scripture is for private interpretation?

Now, Christ commanded us to be perfect as His Father, correct? And He said that eternal life is to know Him, the Father. How are we to know and become like an unperceivable, indistinguishable being? Where in the Bible does it say that God is indistinguishable from Christ? From the beginning to the end, we discover that indeed, Christ was with God, and He is the Son of God. Genesis' account of the creation uses plural pronouns for God, as “They” create the world. John 3:16 clearly states that Christ is God's Only Begotten Son. There are countless times when the Bible clearly defines the relationship between Christ and God as being the Son of the Father. How can you say it is clearly otherwise? Even if you believe otherwise, you cannot "righteously judge" or demonify others for believing Christ when He says that He is the Son of God, and taking it literally.

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:47 am Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

About your statement of Evangelicalism, you contradict yourself. It is true that we are saved by Grace. But you say "by grace alone, through faith alone..." which is likely not what you meant. Faith, as defined in the Bible, is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." What, then, is the "evidence" of our faith? Well, read the epistle of James and find out. "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." “Without faith, it is impossible to please him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” How do you seek God? How do you please Him? Through faith, which is only manifested by works. “Show me your faith without works,” says James, “and I will show you my faith BY my works.” The Lord Jesus Christ only further supported this absolute truth by saying, "Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of My Father, but he who *doeth* the will of My Father who is in heaven." (emphasis added).

Hypocrisy. Hmm, you give an interesting definition. Tell me if you believe the following: that God is the Eternal Father, His Son is Jesus Christ, and His Messenger is the Holy Ghost; Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

And stop contradicting yourself by spouting off inapplicable scriptures. You need something much more substantive to say that Mormons are not Christian.

And now an invitation. Go read a part of the Book of Mormon. If you are too close-minded to try that, then go listen to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing. You’ll feel the Spirit emanate from those you call “unchristian” and maybe you’ll begin to change your mind.

Good luck, and try understanding Mormons from their perspective, instead of some close-minded contentious preacher’s venomous teachings. False prophets indeed. Anyone who would claim to be Christian and knowingly condemn others and put himself in the place of God is more of a false prophet than anybody.

JBA

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dear Quecat,

The Lord said, "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." (Luke 6:37) I would be hopeful that your condemning remarks in mentioning Galatians 1:6-9 are not meant to be such, for they had very little to do with the subject of seeing God face to face. Granted, they are true, but you have no busines pointing fingers at other people. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Regardless of our own strengths, we should "Humble [ourselves] in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift [us] up."

Now, concerning the "face to face" doctrine you discussed, first of all: 2 Peter 1:20 says "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." So for you to quote Wesley is totally meaningless to me. He is not an Apostle of Christ. The idea of speaking face to face is clear and explicit. Indeed, the term "face to face" is interchangeable with "seeing". Any english major could tell you that. It also implies a distinct two-way exchange, as you said. In addition, acknowledging the fact that God spoke "as a man speaketh unto his friend" further supports the idea that they indeed did meet together, within sight of eachother. It certainly cannot be evidence that they did not.

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

You are right, however, that there is no contradiction in the scripture here. It says that Moses requested specifically to see God's "glory" in Exodus 33:18. That is too much for mortal man to bear. This was the distinguising factor that prevented Moses from seeing God's face thereafter, because as we know in verse 23, the Lord said to Moses, "and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Obviously, if the Lord said that Moses should see Him, then it is possible.

Also, about the false apostles scripture in 2 Cr. Read Matthew 7:16-20. We as a people are sometimes guilty of assuming all prophets are false ones. That is not what the Lord was saying. We will know the prophet's truth by his fruits. I challenge you to try reading the Book of Mormon and telling me what you think. No one can browse through that book and still think that Mormon's do not believe in the Savior.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=Alma+7%3A10-14&do=Search
You shall know them by their fruits. I do not assume that Mormons or Mormonism is inherently evil. I have seen their works, and I have learned quite a bit about their beliefs, and they have my respect. Again, be careful to "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

With love and respect, and no contention nor ill will in my heart, I hope you see the merits of the LDS people. Think back to the apostle Paul, on Mars' Hill in Athens as recorded in the book of Acts. Did he condemn the Greeks for believing something different? No, he built them up, and used their "unknown god" as an example on which he built a foundation. If one seeks to tear apart Mormon faith, he will never help them see his views. Only building and edifying, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" then can we be true Christians. (Ephesians 4:13)

Good luck, and God bless you.

JBA

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dear JC,

A few scripture I recalled, that I simply wish to offer as supplements. I'm truly sorry I don't have a lot of time today to respond to anything else though.

John 5:18 - "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Philippians 2:6 - "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

and for Quecat,

Exodus 33:11 - "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle."

Quecat, I believe, and I have heard many of my friends of different Protestant faiths explain that impurity prevents men from seeing God, but if one is forgiven of sin through Christ's sacrifice, then that person can be brought into the glorious presence of God.

Regardless, good luck, and Beloved, always be Christ-like in speech and thought, for "the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God." (James 3:8-9)

Sincerely,
JBA

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

My comment was a little long, I had to split it in two, sorry to all.

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

In answer to the "true problem of LDS" according to Smithdl:

A document entitled "The Living Christ" from the LDS Church supplies the following quote concerning Christ and is an official statement of doctrine of the Mormons, from the Mormons: "He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New." You already agree with this doctrine. Clearly Mormons do as well.

Here's the link (second paragraph, first sentence): http://www.lds.org/pa/library/0,17905,5022-1,00.html

The way I understand LDS theology concerning the Father and the Son is that indeed the relationship, Father and Son, is a real one. So, in reading what I say next, realize this is my own understanding.

When Christ states that He Himself is one with the Father in John 17 during His great intercessory prayer for the Salvation of mankind, aside from other things He also prays that they (Apostles, believers, etc.) will be one with the Son as the Son is one with the Father. He draws direct comparison, that the way in which He is one with the Father is the same as the way in which He will be one with His followers. Also, Stephen the Martyr saw Christ at the right hand of His Father, and again on the mount of transfiguration, Christ stood with Moses and Elias when the voice of God called from the heavens. At the Lord's baptism, either He is a master ventriloquist or there are two distinct individuals there, one in the water, one calling from the heavens that He is well pleased in His Own Son. These are just a few scriptural examples the I hope help you see some reasoning behind what Mormons believe. IMPORTANT: I am not saying I disagree with you on a lot of things, I am saying that Mormons and the Bible are not the same as oil and water, just be open-minded.

And JC, I appreciate that you draw on scriptural examples with Israel and the manifold blessings given to them. The comparison, however, might be drawn on misunderstanding. The nation of Israel was blessed, until the rejection of Christ, and then eventually cursed. With those blessings, they had fairly riotous lives, we know, as they stoned the prophets and whatnot. I agree with you on those points you made, however...

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

What I was saying before about what LDS people do with the blessings they have already been given is clearly different. I was saying that Mormons, on the other hand, do not live riotous lives, but peculiarly virtuous ones. They do not stone those who call them to repentance, but rather (for the most part) embrace them. And charitable work seems to be a common trait among them. Obviously these are traits you would love to see in all Christians, correct? I don't mind if you want to draw a new comparison. I am just saying that the former one might be drawn from a misunderstanding of what I wrote. I apologize if that is the case.

Also, concerning Jesus and Lucipher, the Bible clearly states that Lucipher was fallen from heaven, the son of the morning. It also clearly states that Christ, the Word, was in the beginning with God. Christ is the Creator of all things (I think this is also mentioned in the Mormon document "The Living Christ"). Jesus and Lucipher were obviously both residents of heaven according to the Bible, but seeking to explain further than that is not my place. I can say, however, that if they are brothers, spiritually speaking, it wouldn't frustrate my faith in Christ as the Savior of the world, so I can offer you that from me personally. I do not say this to invite attack, because it's something irrelevant to me. I say this because we all believe that Christ is our older brother, and that doesn't detract from His divinity, does it? Why should anything else?

And concerning the seer stones, I think it is a moot point. Depending on which historical source you are reading, and whether you are a Jew or a Catholic or a Christian along with a few other factors, the seer stones of ancient Israel could very well have been two stones. But I would like to do more reading, so any resources you have, please send me a link, and I would gladly read up on it.

And I do think of you as Beloved because of your conduct here. Please continue to exhibit quality and high caliber. Too often, I see people disparaging Mormons for no good reason, which is why I was drawn to the above article in the first place.

Mormons and Idiosyncrasy

JBA »

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:47 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

To address JC,

The LDS Church has a long history of Christian behavior that I would like to point out before addressing your concerns. For instance, in my home town community, the Church repeatedly was attacked in newspaper articles by the evangelical community, but when Hurricane Katrina came along, no one seemed to be opposed to the fact that the Mormons were the main driving force in helping people get back on their feet. The largest baptist church in the community, with about 3000 weekly church goers, had a sign out front, "If you want food, go to the Mormons". This is just one example, others include the LDS response to the tsunami in southeast Asia, the response to the devastating typhoon a year or so back in Australia, the vaccination of African children, etc.

I say you can judge an entity by what it does with the blessings that the Lord has given it. Don't try to hurt a good thing.

Secondly, the concern that the Gospel according to Mormons is different from what the Bible teaches is invalid. A quick search on google will return an article called "17 Points of the True Church." This is a biblical based process of analyzing church teachings from any denomination, and the LDS dogma is the only doctrine that is in line with all 17 points of the true church as found in the bible. This does not detract from any other denominations. It merely shows the merits of LDS faith, which should be acknowledged.

The Urim and Thummim as Joseph Smith described is in the same way a seer stone as that which Aaron the brother of Moses possessed. The path by which they came to Joseph Smith's hands is easily identified in the same way the people of the Book of Mormon came to be on the American continent.

Also, accusations of witchcraft are erroneous. Clearly the descriptions of the Urim and Thummim in the Old Testament are in line with those of Joseph Smith.

Lastly, the LDS Church states that they believe "the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly". Neither the authenticity or divinity of the Bible is questionable to the Mormons, they are points of fact. The only difference most Christians can argue here is that of the Bible's infallibility. If this is a concern, read Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9. There is obvious discrepancy in the two accounts of the vision of the Apostle Paul. I confidently assume this was not Luke's intention (who is the apparent author of Acts), but rather an error that was not addressed by the copyists of the centuries. I personally believe the Bible, but as a student of History, I know that mistranslations have been propagated, and tend to agree with my Mormon friends on this perception. The Bible is still the word of God and is still the source of the Gospel, even to Mormons.