Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Alright star, then how would you characterize the following, in terms of its accuracy in describing astrophysical reality:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

As a matter of astrophysics, is the Moon a "great light" in the same sense that the Sun is a "great light"?

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:46 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

star: "spiritual implications of theistic eviolution: God really doesn't mean what He says in His Word."

Star, even you do not take the Bible that literally. You could not, for instance, agree with a statement like the following: "Genesis is absolutely accurate in all respects. It is absolutely reliable and accurate not just theologically and spiritually, but also as a source of scientific information, e.g., on matters of physics, chemistry, and biology. We are intended to accept Genesis as reliable in these ways, just as we are intended to rely on it in spiritual matters."

You would not agree with that statement. Neither would Believer. Neither would Math. We all accept that parts of Genesis are to be read allegorically, the difference between us is only one of degree.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Hi Believer,

That's a fair point.

Today is Ash Wednesday, an important day for Catholics like myself. Tonight I am spending some time in contemplation of the significance of today. Perhaps tomorrow I can share my thoughts on Ash Wednesday, in the context of this discussion.

In the meantime, I hope you found the information on that link illuminating.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:54 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Believer, you asked the question: "If that's [radiometric evidence for a 4 byo Earth] true how do we know the measurement is accurate since there standards used to calibrate this equipment would be based on things no where near billions of years old . . . ?"

Why are you surprised that there would be a scientific response to a scientific question?

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Believer, this link has a lot of information on radiometric dating and why it is reliable. It is written especially for Christians who have been told (incorrectly) that radiometric dating is unreliable.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/RESOURCES/WIENS.html#page%2010

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Hi Math,

That is an interesting hypothesis. Let's take a look at it, and see where it takes us.

First of all, I think we would all agree that this is a theological hypothesis, not a scientific hypothesis. By that I mean that you are basing this hypothesis not on any supporting scientific evidence, but upon the literalist interpretation of Genesis that you subscribe to (along with Believer and many others on this forum), but that I do not (and in which I, likewise, am joined by BobTx, ifeelfine, and others). Naturally, if you think there is scientific evidence in favor of this hypothesis, it is more than welcome.

So, assuming this YEC position arguendo, why might God have created all the living things on Earth at a self-sustaining level of maturity? (Genesis, by the way, does not expressly state that God did create living things as already mature, but if we assume the 6 days x 24 hours model, the timing would probably have to work that way. If we allow for creation days longer than 24 hours, Adam could have been created as an infant, sustained by God until he reached maturity, and then God could have created Eve.)

If God were creating not just individual organisms, but a fully functioning ecosystem ex nihilo, that ecosystem would need to include organisms that were already able to fully function within that ecosystem: animals that were able to find their own food, plants that were ready to produce fruit, etc. Otherwise, the system would have fallen apart pretty quickly.

However, that same rationale does not apply to the geological features of the Earth, or to the cosmological features of the Universe. For instance, if we can see the Andromeda Galaxy at 2.5 light years away, then light from that galaxy has been traveling towards us for the past 2.5 million years. Andromeda is, of course, the closest spiral galaxy to our own Milky Way. (Each year, of course, the visible Universe expands by one light year in all directions.) Either Andromeda has been around for at least 2.5 million years, and other objects have been around even longer, or God is doing something to trick us with the light from Andromeda, and from every other cosmic object. Of course, I absolutely reject that second possibility, as I am sure you do as well.

Churches Wrestle to Bridge Creation, Evolution Gap

JohnKandor »

Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

This exchange between BobTX and Believer is interesting. Bob, I'm sure it must have been extraordinarily frustrating to read Believer's response to your post, but I believe there may be an explanation. This is a quick recap of the exchange:

BobTX: There still are species evolving. There are many well-documented examples of speciation events (by agreed upon definitions) having occurred while we've been watching. . . . In Drosophila fruitflies alone, several new species have been observed to occur in lab conditions, as well as at least one I can think of in the wild.

Here is a list of some examples of contemporary speciation:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html


Believer: [N]ew species or new varieties? Aren't they still flies? So would this not be an example of micro-evolution as opposed to macro-evolution?


BobTX: yes, they are still flies. They are a new species and represent macro-evolution because they:
A) cannot breed with their relatives from many generations ago, before the two lines were split.
B) They recognize each other as not being worth pursuing as mates. They don't try to hybridize (this is not necessary for calling it speciation, but it means they would not likely re-hybridize and become one population again after they were put back together
D) have observably different morphological attributes
E)Have measurably different genetics
F) They are now on their own evolutionary track forever as a result of A & B. They will continue to accrue small genetic changes in their population as new alleles or variants arise and fix in the population. Particularly if they are under enough selective pressure, their morphological differences could become quite sever.

You cannot have micro evolution without macro evolution. It makes no sense whatsoever. To someone who understands evolution, this is like saying the iceberg can only undergo micro melting - true in snapshot form, but micro melting adds up quickly.

This was a careful, detailed (but not too technical) explanation by BobTX of how these flies were a new species, representing a macroevolutionary speciation. Believer's response was as follows:

Believer: but there still flies!


Believer, there are only a few possible explanations for your answer there. I would like to ask you a question. I fear that it will sound insulting. Please believe me when I tell you that I do not mean this as an insult or as a joke. People who make jokes or insults about this, I feel only contempt for. I only ask this so I will better understand where you are coming from, and how to better communicate with you. My question is this: Do you suffer from some sort of learning disability? If you do, it is certainly nothing to be ashamed of, and it would explain your inability to follow Bob's explanation.

Creationist Conference on Refuting Darwin Draws 4,500

JohnKandor »

Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

farout: "I just see to many flaws in how male and female evolved at the same time, yet so very different and so perfect for reproduction."

Farout, just so I know where you are coming from, have you been watching Ray Comfort's videos?

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Holy Toledo, Star! I don't know why these guys decided to jump on your case out of the blue, but good for you for not just quietly taking this garbage from them.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

star, why are you so convinced that God has structured the Universe in an inherently deceptive way, to make it appear, falsely, that living things share common ancestry?

What did God ever do to you to convince you that He is lying to you?

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"jk, I know agent is an agnostic, what about you?"

Please do not pretend that I have not made my faith perfectly plain to you on this forum.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

"Well, in truth, you can't "feel" anymore "special" to God as an ape would should God decide to 'save' them as well."

That's quite a talent you have there, for knowing what other people can and cannot feel.

"Being created bearing His Image makes me accountable to my Creator; it demands a response from me toward God."

When did Ifeelfine ever say that he wasn't created in God's image? He said that he accepts that God used the process of evolution to create him, but he never said that God did not create him in his image. You really should not put words in other people's mouths.

"From what I've read in your postings here, feelfine, accountability to God for you is not a big issue, otherwise your postings here would denote a sense of humility for the things of God."

He's not the one saying that God is not allowed to use evolution.

There IS the difference.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

". . . Obviously evolution and Christianity are compatible - otherwise so many of us wouldn't be able to reconcile it and we clearly can! :)"

Ifeelfine, it would seem that Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., does not believe that you or I exist.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

"Actually, no. I drop my hammer off the roof and I prove Newton's gravity theory. An airplane looses power and it falls to earth proving Newton's gravity theory. A building gets demo'ed and it falls to earth proving Newton's gravity theory. Measureable cause and effect on ANY scale."

See, this is where some knowledge of the history of science would be helpful to you, DP. At the time Newton proposed his theory, it was not at all apparent that the same force that pulled a dropped hammer onto your foot was the same force that governed the movement of the Moon about the Earth, or movement of the Earth and the other planets about the Sun, or the movement of the Sun and the other stars in our galaxy about our galaxy's center of gravity.

Part of Newton's genius was in seeing how an effect that was observed on a small scale could operate on a much larger scale, to explain larger-scale phenomena. Which is exactly what Darwin did.

"Evolution cannot be measured on ANY scale. It is measured on a small scale within a small area of biological existance . . .."

I'm sure you recognize by now that these two sentences are logically inconsistent.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer, just in case you forgot, your claim was that it was easier to maintain perfection in a tropical environment. My question to you was how is any environment easier for God to maintain in a perfect state than any other environment? After all, God is all powerful. So nothing is relatively easier or harder for God.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Bob, that was exactly the same book I was going to recommend.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer: "agent, once again prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, creation as we know it was perfect and many creationists believe our earth was basically a tropical environment which is an excellent climate for maintaining a perfect environment as compared to other types of climate."

How, exactly, is it easier for God to maintain "perfection" in a tropical climate, versus a temperate, desert, or arctic environment?

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Believer: "agent, once again prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, creation as we know it was perfect and many creationists believe our earth was basically a tropical environment which is an excellent climate for maintaining a perfect environment as compared to other types of climate."

Believer, maybe you should think about what you just wrote for a little while. You might decide that you'd rather retract it, upon further reflection.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"jk, but Darwin was using science to negate the need for God if not rule out the existence of God all together!"

No, he wasn't. That's just a Creationist myth, like his supposed deathbed recantation.

"And that would say what about his findings?"

Nothing. Scientific findings stand or fall on their evidentiary merits, and on their evidentiary merits alone.

Evolution and Christianity Impossible to Reconcile, Says Evangelical Theologian

JohnKandor »

Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

James Reynolds, if you drafted your remarks in a word processor, and then copied and pasted into the comment window, you need to take out any smart quotes or apostrophes with their straight versions.