SBellam, The Spanish Inquisition was more about exercising power through pride and greed than it was about leading people to Christ. So, no … I don’t long for that. The spiritual war that is taking place in the world has a front-line in the church, including a few pulpits, as well as in the day-to-day world. It does not surprise Christians that there are sinners in the church … and some s...more

SBellam, The Spanish Inquisition was more about exercising power through pride and greed than it was about leading people to Christ. So, no … I don’t long for that. The spiritual war that is taking place in the world has a front-line in the church, including a few pulpits, as well as in the day-to-day world. It does not surprise Christians that there are sinners in the church … and some sinners who come to great power over others. That is something we are ashamed of, not in denial of.

Apostasy is a departure from a religion or any group holding a set of ideals for that matter. I don’t deny apostasy; it’s a very useful tool for identifying who really fits into a mold. The atheist who becomes a Christian (or Muslim, Jew, Scientologist, etc) has departed from a set of beliefs and ideals which made them an atheist. I’m an apostate, once of Pluralism, and once of Catholicism. I’m a Christian who has accepted God’s gift to me of Christ on the Cross. Salvation is something I can not earn … nor do I deserve it. An apostate of Christianity is proof that they were never a Christian … only a member of a Christian religion. Hence, they never had a true relationship with Christ, they only wanted to “earn” a place at His table. *tsk, tsk* … those seats are “not for sale” :^)

Reason, BTW … is subjective. I use just as much reasoning as you (give or take) … but I don’t limit myself to only believing in things that can only be modeled in our “finite” natural world. But even in the natural world, FAITH is necessary for discovery. Case-in-point: Billions of $$$ for a hadron collider to try to find some elementary particle(s) that is only “theorized” to exist, with no assurance that IF someone THINKS they’ve found it, that the discovery will be able to be reproduced … ever.

I didn’t miss your point on being covetous – “inordinately or wrongly desirous of wealth or possessions; greedy”, or “jealously eager for the possession of something (esp the property of another person)”. This does not necessarily meaning that it’s tied to theft, either. It means you’re jealous of what someone has, and you want the same (or better) to maintain your status-quo. The definition of jealousy is not limited to wanting a person … although it can lead to objectification of people. BTW, I’m just looking in dictionary.reference.com for this; It seems sufficient, but if you have a better reference, let me know.less

SBellam … Here we go again. I may be making some broad assumptions here, but rubbing a bottle and making wishes does NOT constitute a relationship with Christ … hence, making the claim that you were a Christian is highly inaccurate at best. I’m surprised that you’re still trying to use a “Been there, done that” testimonial to attempt to convince readers that there is no God. Whateve...more

SBellam … Here we go again. I may be making some broad assumptions here, but rubbing a bottle and making wishes does NOT constitute a relationship with Christ … hence, making the claim that you were a Christian is highly inaccurate at best. I’m surprised that you’re still trying to use a “Been there, done that” testimonial to attempt to convince readers that there is no God. Whatever you were, you had no salvation then, just as you have no salvation, now.

In an earlier post you mentioned that people could attest to your previous “delusion”. So, you admit (from your perspective) that you held beliefs which you now consider to be untrue. I’m a little surprised at that too. I’m still on the fence about whether you’re embarrassed about specifics of your “test drive” with Christianity … or if you just can’t develop a convincing enough cover story to explain it.

And BTW, coveting (or jealously) and having aspirations for a better life are NOT the same thing.less

GMG, Thanks much. I actually have a couple children’s manuscripts “ready-to-go”, sort of. One, I think you’ve read, and the other is a new one I banged out a few months ago. But, I tell ya, having 2 young ones doesn’t lend much time to writing for them, or for us older ones for that matter :^) I still need to get off my prolific butt (ooooh, that could be GROSSLY misinterpreted) and...more

GMG, Thanks much. I actually have a couple children’s manuscripts “ready-to-go”, sort of. One, I think you’ve read, and the other is a new one I banged out a few months ago. But, I tell ya, having 2 young ones doesn’t lend much time to writing for them, or for us older ones for that matter :^) I still need to get off my prolific butt (ooooh, that could be GROSSLY misinterpreted) and get an agent. I’m not sure if I should pursue an illustrator; both stories can actually be understood on their own. The new one is about lunar phases, and is rather humorous to kids and adults alike in my test readings. I’ll have to send you a copy after I tweak it a little. As for the more grown up genre, I’ve actually been toying around with a love story idea -- with a relatively sci-fi-hard-to-believe premise :^) It’s probably similar in realism to ’50 First Dates’, but will deal with infidelity and have direct Christian references to the importance of communication in marriage. I’ll have to run it by you sometime. Take care and God bless :^)less

GMG, *groan* I would LOVE to. I’m stuck inside doing … da da da DAAAAA … test procedure review. I can’t wait until funding kicks in for the more-funner development stuff. We just got a new cultivator last weekend. It’s a super-quiet-when-idle Toro; My wife is very gung-ho on doing a veggie garden this year. I’m going to do some isolated planters so I can grow habaneros (number 9...more

GMG, *groan* I would LOVE to. I’m stuck inside doing … da da da DAAAAA … test procedure review. I can’t wait until funding kicks in for the more-funner development stuff. We just got a new cultivator last weekend. It’s a super-quiet-when-idle Toro; My wife is very gung-ho on doing a veggie garden this year. I’m going to do some isolated planters so I can grow habaneros (number 999,867 on my 1,000,001 Thing-to-do list).less

SBellam ... *sigh* ... thanks for being honest, I guess.

Todd ... oops, was writing while you were posting. Gotchya, no prob.

Thanks, GMG. I'm still curious if Todd can see it. If he's using Opera or something, there could have been a compatibility issue. Hey. How are you, BTW? Hope you're getting ready for plenty of outdoor fun :^)

BTW, before I made assumptions, I should have asked if you guys can see the "slash" through the "equals" sign in this symbol: ≠ ... I just want to make sure it's not a browser thing.

SBellam ... I've been looking over the banner text, and I'm going to bend a little on this. Here's what it would say without the beginning or the end: "Grant us each day the desire to do our best, To grow mentally and morally as well as physically, To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers, To be honest with ourselves as well as with others, Help us to be good sports and smile when we...more

SBellam ... I've been looking over the banner text, and I'm going to bend a little on this. Here's what it would say without the beginning or the end: "Grant us each day the desire to do our best, To grow mentally and morally as well as physically, To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers, To be honest with ourselves as well as with others, Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win, Teach us the value of true friendship, Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West."

Looking at this, it is very clear that the words are expressing "requests". Christian students who would recite this to themselves would understand they are making those requests to God. I'm not sure WHO non-theists would be asking these things of, because any such request would require them to anthropomorphize something ... but it might be easier for them to ignore. And why request it of themselves ... just do it, right?

The only problem is, I can see the day when opponents start complaining about students making the sign-of-the-cross, or saying "Amen" as they pass under the banner. I doubt typical students (even Christians) would do that except to express a point ... but the concern still stands.less

Todd says, "Removal = Inclusion" ... No. I didn't say that. I said "Removal ≠ Inclusion".

Todd, thanks for explaining what my intention was, except that it was incorrect. I'm not assuming that 1 in 1700 students had an issue ... I said 1 in 1700 "complained". I agree that Christianity as a religion can cause numerous probems when each Christian doesn't understand that their first and foremost "relationship" is with Christ. However, it does provide solidarity amongst Christians, whic...more

Todd, thanks for explaining what my intention was, except that it was incorrect. I'm not assuming that 1 in 1700 students had an issue ... I said 1 in 1700 "complained". I agree that Christianity as a religion can cause numerous probems when each Christian doesn't understand that their first and foremost "relationship" is with Christ. However, it does provide solidarity amongst Christians, which I realize that non-believers don't have with each-other ... as much. But that's changing, isn't it?

Also, Christians will feel the same solidarity between each other as other people feel in any group which is WAY more exclusive than Christianity. What about students who aren't good at competative sports or games ... or have emotional disabilities which prevent them from being able to "smile when they lose". What about students who have trouble forming friendships ... should they remove the text referring to "true friendship"?

If you start removing things from schools that might offend someone, you'ld end up with all students (both boys & girls) with shaved heads (or burkas), wearing gender-neutral, gray smocks, who aren't allowed to talk to each other or use facial expressions. In other words ... kids will find SOMETHING to fight about. That's life.

BTW, I would never condone, much less applaud the actions of un-Christlike Christians who ridicule or threaten her for opposing a stated belief in God. I don't believe for a second that someone threatened to beat her up, though because she simply stated that the banner did not belong there. It probably escalated from that. In ANY case ... shame on those Christians. And I hope anyone who threatened her is being dealt with, appropriately. I've been saying we need anti-bullying legislation years before anyone started formally talking about it.

Keep in mind, we've all had our conflicts in school. I've had my share and I've seen plenty. And you know what? NONE of them had anything to do with religion. I actually dated an atheist girl back in high school for a short time, and there were plenty of things about her personality that ticked people off.less

SBellam, if we're going to get technical, Miss Ahlquist is included in the 1700 "rounded up estimation". And I was simply saying is that "Removal ≠ Inclusion". Can't deny that, right?

SBellam casually says, “Leave the banner up, but just remove the religious connotation. That would be the smart and inclusive thing to do”. So, there are nearly 1700 students at this high school, but you’re telling us that “removing” the generic Godly references would promote “inclusiveness” for 1 individual who complained, but could just ignore it? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I...more

SBellam casually says, “Leave the banner up, but just remove the religious connotation. That would be the smart and inclusive thing to do”. So, there are nearly 1700 students at this high school, but you’re telling us that “removing” the generic Godly references would promote “inclusiveness” for 1 individual who complained, but could just ignore it? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that removing something would be following the antithesis of inclusion. One could make the point here that the reason non-believers REALLY want to remove God from the public forum is so they don’t have to be reminded they are in the minority; in the general sense of belief in a “higher power”, that is.less

believer, I just looked up that cross-ref. Very cool. Thanks. I'm curious if Amalgamate will read up on any of this. He's been harping a lot on it, lately. We need to somehow make it clearer that we're not looking to "stick it" to unbelievers. I'd like to see him [have] (maybe acknowledge is the right word) an understanding of some of this. I never would have understood any of it before bei...more

believer, I just looked up that cross-ref. Very cool. Thanks. I'm curious if Amalgamate will read up on any of this. He's been harping a lot on it, lately. We need to somehow make it clearer that we're not looking to "stick it" to unbelievers. I'd like to see him [have] (maybe acknowledge is the right word) an understanding of some of this. I never would have understood any of it before being called back to the Lord.less

ChristBearer, very good commentary on Deut 22. Believer, I've been mislead by my own understanding of those verses myself. We might want to give Amalgamate the benefit of the doubt? ;^) Here's a link I found to corroborate what ChristBearer has explained ... hope it's not too detailed; http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm

May surprise a few here that know me, but I have to agree ... very good article.

No prob, DP.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33505354/ns/business-local_business/

gdbrown, One other thing ... LakeShoreChurch is right. There are those who wave the Christian banner, but are JUST ... NOT ... CHRISTIANS. Some really are just into it for a nice little cozy organized religion, and really know nothing of what having a relationship with Christ means.

gdbrown, Sometimes Christians will act reprehensibly because although we are saved, we still live in the flesh. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, but not purified. Also, sanctification does not apply when we act solely by our own standards apart from God's. He will not honor that ... which BTW, is also a good data point for skeptics as to why lots of prayers don't seem to get answered. Man...more

gdbrown, Sometimes Christians will act reprehensibly because although we are saved, we still live in the flesh. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, but not purified. Also, sanctification does not apply when we act solely by our own standards apart from God's. He will not honor that ... which BTW, is also a good data point for skeptics as to why lots of prayers don't seem to get answered. Many of our prayers are selfish ... even some of the prayers that seem well intentioned. Long story short ... Christians are ADMITTEDLY still capable of sin.less