SBellam asks (for the last time?), "Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, and loving god allow anyone to be sentenced to eternal torture or however you describe Hell?" ... read this. http://www.jonathan-edwards.org/Eternity.html. You may not understand it, but there it is.

SBellam, it's questions like these you've been asking which give evidence to Christians here that you were never really ever a Christian as you so asserted. A Christian should know and understand these things. What could you ever have possibly proclaimed to others as a witness of the Gospel message?

SBellam says, "MuggleBorn - I didn't think you'd like the question. So, you'd sacrifice your child for "love"? Not me." ... I like questions that make sense, to put it rather bluntly. You're reference to "love" implies you think of love as something that exists all by itself ... it's not. Their must be someone "that" loves, and someone "to" love. God loves US ... in any case read my last expl...more

SBellam says, "MuggleBorn - I didn't think you'd like the question. So, you'd sacrifice your child for "love"? Not me." ... I like questions that make sense, to put it rather bluntly. You're reference to "love" implies you think of love as something that exists all by itself ... it's not. Their must be someone "that" loves, and someone "to" love. God loves US ... in any case read my last explanation. Jesus is alive at the end of the story.less

Matthew713 & Forgivensinner, both nicely said. SBellam, since Jesus Himself is God and the second Person of the Triune Godhead, He cannot be annihilated. Therefore, He was the only one that, as both man & God could bear the total and infinitely just judgement of God in place of us. No one else could do it. He was also the only living person who was "perfect" all His human life, uncorrupted by ...more

Matthew713 & Forgivensinner, both nicely said. SBellam, since Jesus Himself is God and the second Person of the Triune Godhead, He cannot be annihilated. Therefore, He was the only one that, as both man & God could bear the total and infinitely just judgement of God in place of us. No one else could do it. He was also the only living person who was "perfect" all His human life, uncorrupted by sin. So, He was the only suitable sacraficial lamb that could be offered for forgiveness of all our sins ... an infinite being, to bear infinite judgement, then raised again on the third day.

If you had something very important (doesn't matter what it is ... call it a widget) that fell in a pot of boiling water and "needed" to be retrieved for your infant child, would you ask him/her to get it, knowing they would be burned, or would you, with your superior fine motor skills and dexterity retrieve it for them? An imperfect analogy, but it should be easy to understand.less

SBellam asked, "Why does sacrificing your only child to save your own imperfect creations from eternal hell qualify as virtuous? Any non-Biblical rationale?" ... heh heh. What's the question, again? Since you deleted this post 2x already and rephrased it, I'm not sure you meant to asked what you did. Does the question make sense to you? In any case, it's love. The short answer is love.

SBellam, there's no compelling evidence that you believe (or disbelieve in this case) what you SAY you do. All we have is your testimony, which apparently is very suspect, since there's nothing tangible to qualify it. Please write us a paper providing quantitative evidence for your belief and have an equal number of Atheists and Christians peer review it.

SBellam, it doesn't make sense ... for God to love us, that is. We're horrible. But He does, and that's all that matters :^) BTW, I still owe you commentary on miracles. Sorry I'm being such a slacker on that; I've had a messed up schedule this week. Anyway, Happy John 3:16 Day! Jesus loves you.

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to respond, and I'm headed off to bed, but I just wanted to remind us all that we're on the same side here. I don't think our differences in view of some of these doctrines invalidates any of our individual professions of faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ. Juxtaposing the creeds by which we profess that faith for each of us as Christians should show more similaritie...more

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to respond, and I'm headed off to bed, but I just wanted to remind us all that we're on the same side here. I don't think our differences in view of some of these doctrines invalidates any of our individual professions of faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ. Juxtaposing the creeds by which we profess that faith for each of us as Christians should show more similarities than contrasts.

Referring to brothers & sisters in Christ: John 13:35 - By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Christ be with all of you.less

railhead ... I'm liking your posts more and more and believe that you, yourself are moved by the Spirit. I think that what you say is for God's Glory. Don't get a big head! :^)

"for not behaving idyllically" ... No, johnson. That's not it.

gracefulwords (or anyone interested), if you go to www.gty.org and do a keyword search on "predestination", it will render articles and sermons addressing the Doctrine of Election. At least one of these "should" also address the fallacy of double-predestination. I have some things to get done today, so I didn't have a chance to pinpoint it. Sorry, I hope this is useful.

BTW, The sermon might be found on the Grace To You website. I'll see if I can find some time to dig it up this weekend.

railhead, very good commentary on the Doctrine of Predestination. Gracefulwords, as rail points out, God doesn't destine anyone for Hell. That's referred to as double-predestination. I actually heard a pretty good sermon from John MacArthur covering this a few weeks ago.

" to bring in the sheeple.........." ... under the ... STEEPLE!

Steve, you mean like when someone gets in an argument with the Pope while manning the grill, and they let it go too long and the steak gets WAY to well done? Come off it, already. That must've been ... gosh, what, like WEEKS ago. Just ... let ... it ... go. MAN!

Yeah, johnson. C'mon. Why all the torture? You're torturous torchuring of torchuring us with torture is just torturous. Torture torture torture torture torture tortoise tortellini. Through three cheese trees three free fleas flew. While these fleas flew, freezy breeze blew. Freezy breeze made these three trees freeze. Freezy trees made these trees' cheese freeze. That's what made thes...more

Yeah, johnson. C'mon. Why all the torture? You're torturous torchuring of torchuring us with torture is just torturous. Torture torture torture torture torture tortoise tortellini. Through three cheese trees three free fleas flew. While these fleas flew, freezy breeze blew. Freezy breeze made these three trees freeze. Freezy trees made these trees' cheese freeze. That's what made these three free fleas sneeze. ... TORTURE!less

JustWondering, I just put this in another thread, myself. IMHO ... it's a rather lengthy read, but it might help with your question as to God's justification for Hell. "It is so contrary to the depraved inclinations of mankind, that they hate to believe it and cannot bear it should be true. They see not the suitableness of eternal punishment to the evil of sin. They see not that it is no more t...more

JustWondering, I just put this in another thread, myself. IMHO ... it's a rather lengthy read, but it might help with your question as to God's justification for Hell. "It is so contrary to the depraved inclinations of mankind, that they hate to believe it and cannot bear it should be true. They see not the suitableness of eternal punishment to the evil of sin. They see not that it is no more than proportionable to the demerit of sin." -- Jonathan Edwards. http://www.jonathan-edwards.org/Eternity.htmlless

"It is so contrary to the depraved inclinations of mankind, that they hate to believe it and cannot bear it should be true. They see not the suitableness of eternal punishment to the evil of sin. They see not that it is no more than proportionable to the demerit of sin." -- Jonathan Edwards. http://www.jonathan-edwards.org/Eternity.html

SBellam. That's a really good question and I'd like to take some time (later tonight or this weekend) to devote to it because my answer is multi-faceted. But let me at least say that my belief in miracles is mainly foundational of my faith and the belief that God is capable of interacting with the natural world. But, I would be wary of anyone who tried to give me a formulaic or parameterized me...more

SBellam. That's a really good question and I'd like to take some time (later tonight or this weekend) to devote to it because my answer is multi-faceted. But let me at least say that my belief in miracles is mainly foundational of my faith and the belief that God is capable of interacting with the natural world. But, I would be wary of anyone who tried to give me a formulaic or parameterized methodology for identifying them. It seems at times it's analogous to being given a barrel of marbles and being asked to "find the white one", so you look in the barrel and it's full of light-beige marbles :^) "Oh, and do it with this color-changing strobe light overhead."less

SBellam said, "Maybe then there would be one less thing to divide our civilization". Oooooh. Yuck. Even if Christianity were a false religion, it's the only thing that kept the world from being at least 90% Muslim, today. Solidarity through oppression is what we'd have and if we had a conversation like this in that reality ... we'd both have our heads chopped off by now. Christ brings freedo...more

SBellam said, "Maybe then there would be one less thing to divide our civilization". Oooooh. Yuck. Even if Christianity were a false religion, it's the only thing that kept the world from being at least 90% Muslim, today. Solidarity through oppression is what we'd have and if we had a conversation like this in that reality ... we'd both have our heads chopped off by now. Christ brings freedom to the present day as well as eternity.less