SBellam, so you also have issues with the notion of miracles. OK. Take the Virgin Birth of Jesus. Besides the fact that it's a biological impossibility, what's so hard to believe about it? Isn't that the nature of a miracle? That it happens beyond the physical limitations of the natural world? I mean, that's why it's called supernatural. What evidence can you really provide except for corro...more

SBellam, so you also have issues with the notion of miracles. OK. Take the Virgin Birth of Jesus. Besides the fact that it's a biological impossibility, what's so hard to believe about it? Isn't that the nature of a miracle? That it happens beyond the physical limitations of the natural world? I mean, that's why it's called supernatural. What evidence can you really provide except for corroborative testimony? Miracles are not subject to test, because we have no way to model them. I have a brain, too. But I integrate faith into my logic and reasoning to presuppose that there is a supernatural world beyond our natural one. But I'll assure you that I'm not easily taken in by every water stain that's shaped like the Blessed Virgin, and don't believe every epileptic seizure is a demonic possession.less

It makes sense to rely on writings that were made as close to the actual event as possible, by people who were there for them. Otherwise it would be like someone in the 20th Century writing a book about George Washington, trying to describe what sort of person he was without ever having at least read his writings, much less having known the man while he was alive. There is plenty of well analy...more

It makes sense to rely on writings that were made as close to the actual event as possible, by people who were there for them. Otherwise it would be like someone in the 20th Century writing a book about George Washington, trying to describe what sort of person he was without ever having at least read his writings, much less having known the man while he was alive.

There is plenty of well analyzed historical evidence which leaves no doubt that Jesus the man existed. So, the only objection to overcome is that He was divine. The fact that there has been such a huge following, starting from a small group of people who didn't reject Him when He made the wild claim that He was the Son of God should be evidence enough. I'll have to see if I can find a decent online source for you (someone else may jump in and provide one). I don't want to make you go out and buy a book .. I hate when people do that :^)less

I agree with reformedbaptist. Demonstration AND testimony can be a powerful combination ... whereas just one or the other will many times carry very little, if any weight. Or to put it another way, sharing the Good News is our mandate to sow, and perhaps demonstration can "pre-till" the soil? Thoughts?

Man, I used the word "very" 4x in that post ... I must need more coffee. BTW, SBellam ... who are the authors you're referring to?

SBellam, what sort of evidence are you actually looking for? Empirical data, video, testimony? I'm not sure how you produce "natural" evidence for the supernatural with only natural means of experimentation and measurement at our disposal. You have to rely on testimony in God's Word which carries weight when you consider corroborative testimonies of the 1st century martyrs who went to their...more

SBellam, what sort of evidence are you actually looking for? Empirical data, video, testimony? I'm not sure how you produce "natural" evidence for the supernatural with only natural means of experimentation and measurement at our disposal.

You have to rely on testimony in God's Word which carries weight when you consider corroborative testimonies of the 1st century martyrs who went to their deaths having claimed to have actually "seen" and spoken with the risen Christ. It's one thing to die for a false belief out of faith, but they died for testimony of what they saw.

As for me ... I'd have to die by my faith; Never seen anything (worthy of mention) or had any reason to have an MRI :^) I did have what I can only call an "experience" once ... but I'll save it.less

SBellam, have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias? He's a very insightful preacher who has a radio ministry that deals with topics you might find interesting. Sometimes his sermons appear to take on a very eclectic approach, but he ties his points back to scripture and seems to have a very solid perception of who Jesus is. If you're interested, visit http://www.rzim.org/resources.aspx. The links ...more

SBellam, have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias? He's a very insightful preacher who has a radio ministry that deals with topics you might find interesting. Sometimes his sermons appear to take on a very eclectic approach, but he ties his points back to scripture and seems to have a very solid perception of who Jesus is. If you're interested, visit http://www.rzim.org/resources.aspx. The links to the radio programs have archived sermons that you can download for free. They only go back a year as far as I can tell, but it's better than nothing.

Now, I'm not suggesting this because I think it will give you "answers", per se. But maybe it will raise questions, which can be just as beneficial. At the very least, you can roll your eyes at it and have a laugh if you find him comical.less

Sadly, for many it will be eternally relevant.

Hmmm, I don't recall ever hearing in any of my history classes that Hitler had asked millions of Jews to "join" him.

1way2him, Wow. You asked a really good question. And the rest of you are providing a wonderful dialogue that every Christian on this board should be interested in. I've always leaned towards the LaHaye/Jenkins pretrib position as in the 'Left Behind' series myself, but there's a LOT of insightful conversation going on in this thread. This is what these forums should be about; Christians shari...more

1way2him, Wow. You asked a really good question. And the rest of you are providing a wonderful dialogue that every Christian on this board should be interested in. I've always leaned towards the LaHaye/Jenkins pretrib position as in the 'Left Behind' series myself, but there's a LOT of insightful conversation going on in this thread. This is what these forums should be about; Christians sharing insight and interpretation. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that I'm getting a lot out of this, hopefully to encourage more. Praise God for all of you :^)less

SBellam, Well, that's kind of weird. You're embarrassed in some way by the answer you'ld have to give me. Aren't you? Whatever the case, I really don't think you were ever a Christian. You may have carried the proverbial flag, but you were never truly born again.

SBellam says, "Sounds like you're speaking for god." ... USAsoccer is pointing out that Romans 1:28 characterizes you pretty clearly. A quick assessments of your posts corroborates it. You said on a previous thread to RTJ, "Been there, done that. Didn't like being a Christian after I discovered that there's insufficient evidence and reason for everything you claim in your comment". I'll as...more

SBellam says, "Sounds like you're speaking for god." ... USAsoccer is pointing out that Romans 1:28 characterizes you pretty clearly. A quick assessments of your posts corroborates it. You said on a previous thread to RTJ, "Been there, done that. Didn't like being a Christian after I discovered that there's insufficient evidence and reason for everything you claim in your comment".

I'll ask again, why did you ever to come to Christ in the first place? And, what was it that you were expecting out of a relationship with Him?less

USASoccer & revran. Very nice responses. They compliment each other, admirably. CaptainSlog, there IS a way out. The reason is John 3:16. And there is a report, NOT on how many HE will reject ... but rather on how many will reject HIM, starting with Matt 7:13-14.

Reasoning IS the greatest source of strength for progress (a rather broad term). But respect for evidence is only a small part of understanding and progress. It takes "faith" to break through boundries of understanding and question the evidence (more often than not) when necessary. It's our presuppositions which determine a correct or incorrect course of action, and the wrong presupposition can...more

Reasoning IS the greatest source of strength for progress (a rather broad term). But respect for evidence is only a small part of understanding and progress. It takes "faith" to break through boundries of understanding and question the evidence (more often than not) when necessary. It's our presuppositions which determine a correct or incorrect course of action, and the wrong presupposition can lead one down a path of discovery producing false evidence for a long time.

The evidence we seek cannot always rely on empirical data, but historical data and testimony; which, of course can be obfuscated by falsehoods. It takes a little more work to sift through than with simple empirical data, but Christians are willing to do it to understand our Lord better and strengthen our relationship with Him.less

Amalgamate, what scripture text are you taking that quote from? And, can you explain how it applies to choosing suicide?

SBellam, I'm curious, and I apologize if you've had to answer similar questions before ... but, why did you ever to come to Christ in the first place? And, what was it that you were expecting out of a relationship with Him?

gdbrown mentions, "he was arrested for a violation of law. He was in the wrong, as the appeals court determined." -- I understand this in the U.K., so, would you have the same opinion if the law were interpreted to prosecute someone holding the same sign, here in the U.S.? Wrong and unlawful do not always coincide. Do they? Gay marriage was once against the law in the U.S. and many other coun...more

gdbrown mentions, "he was arrested for a violation of law. He was in the wrong, as the appeals court determined." -- I understand this in the U.K., so, would you have the same opinion if the law were interpreted to prosecute someone holding the same sign, here in the U.S.? Wrong and unlawful do not always coincide. Do they? Gay marriage was once against the law in the U.S. and many other countries where it's now legal. Legal does not mean right. And now, instead of it being illegal AND wrong, it's just wrong ... but illegal to say it (yes, just hyperbole for now ... but we're well on our way).less

gdbrown, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hammond

RSR, you're trying way too hard to knitpick Colson for another opportunity to use your stupid Judge Jones quote. Is there anything that's ever been written or said that you've been able to keep in context? What MaxVeritas provided is accurate (as you've just affirmed) and proves that Colson's remark is accurate in the same context. His only mistake was putting quotes around it, so you would hav...more

RSR, you're trying way too hard to knitpick Colson for another opportunity to use your stupid Judge Jones quote. Is there anything that's ever been written or said that you've been able to keep in context? What MaxVeritas provided is accurate (as you've just affirmed) and proves that Colson's remark is accurate in the same context. His only mistake was putting quotes around it, so you would have something to misinterpret. At least it's obvious now that the quotes were for emphasis, since the paragraph was just summarizing. So, it seems your only MO currently is to try and data mine tiny, meaningless inaccuracies and call them out as bald-faced lies. You're getting sloppy RSR.

Good find, MaxVeritas.less

He didn't actually create it just for us. Scripture tells us that it was created for Lucifer to separate him and his angelic followers from God in the heavenly realms. Matthew 25:41 - "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Polycarp, very well said. Amen.