Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<Actually if you would read thru the rest of that article instead of just the first paragraph that you posted, you would notice that the "rest" of those ressurections you claim are in the article are never actually witnessed by people and for that article to claim that resurrection is in every other religion is completely false.>>

What? The ONLY resurrection mentioned in the article is Christ‘s, as this direct quote states and the one I challenged went as follows…“Athanatos Executive Director Anthony Horvath, one of the course's facilitators, says that resurrection is a claim that is unique to the Christian faith and is not present in any other religions.” The resurrections whether myths, legends or historic are not UNIQUE to Christianity. Sorry. Historical evidence predating Christianity indicates that fact via the sources I listed from wikipedia. The religion of Mithraism which I mentioned in a later post, does also.
BTW, How can you prove that those pre-Christian religions are false, and how can you prove their resurrections are false? Were you there to witness any of those resurrections? Many other religions which attest to the resurrection of their deity, also claim to have eye witnesses(recorded in their accounts) just like the women who went to the tomb in the Christian account. Resurrection is a borrowed belief throughout literature, mythology and it predates Christianity.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

<<<<Most important, Your accusation that I am out to 'steal money' is really out of line. Some 1.5 billion Christians believe in the resurrection and there are hundreds of thousands of churches. Are they then just out to 'steal money'? Good grief.>>

Thats a ridiculous comparison, because only if those 1.5 billion Christians who believe in the resurrection were selling an education in Christian Apologetics/how to defend their faith, would it be considered stealing money from other Christians. The faith comes freely from Jesus, but some people are making a profit off of it, and that in my opinion is stealing.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

<<Sorry fellah. You're wrong. You are out of line. However, like I said, I didn't expect you to see that, and hence I did not expect an apology. Thank you for exhibiting for all the attitude I suspected was behind your comments all along. You've removed all doubt. Have a good day, sir. >>

Why should I see the FACTS as wrong when all you've done is JUST say I'm wrong- you've offered no shred of evidence in the defense of your comments, I read and quoted youand then disproved you.
Oh, and BTW the religion of Mithraism like Christianity has a resurrection "witness" in it's beliefs, so again, resurrection beliefs are not unique to Christianity.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Matthew 10 7-8 states that Jesus said:
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Apparently some Christians feel it should cost weaker, easily duped Christians to confirm their faith and prepare them for apolgetics(tools to defend their faith) instead of freely giving them with justice in order to teach them to serve G-d.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<Honestly, such comments are completely out of line. I think you should apologize, though I don't expect one, and I shall have no trouble functioning if I don't receive one. >>

Apologly dictates that I have stated something wrong about you for which I have either a)misrepresented the facts about you; or b)lied about what you said, you misrepresented fact and I corrected. You charge money for an online course designed to prevent Christians from "falling away" and believing a work of fiction. You are charging for services you consider to be education(eventhough you presented fallacies for which I produced evidence) which churches are instructed to give away freely. How does telling the truth based on the quotes from the article, quotes from a source about resurrection and statements clearly defined as my opinion warrant an apology from me?

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<Most important, Your accusation that I am out to 'steal money' is really out of line. Some 1.5 billion Christians believe in the resurrection and there are hundreds of thousands of churches. Are they then just out to 'steal money'? Good grief. Furthermore, as to whether or not I'm lying I think the really important thing to do- if you are a person of integrity- is to contact me to see if I can substantiate my claim before sinking to such depths.>>

Stating my personal opinions on a free for all board is not sinking to depths- and what depths is there when pointing out fallacy so easily refuted? I am as entitled as the next person who post here to exhibit my objections, my skepticism and by my pointing out that I considered it lying to claim, as I factually mentioned; factually, other religions do have resurrection stories, they are NOT unique to Christianity and they are not confusing in my mind with resuscitation.
Perhaps you ought to have explained it better in the interview so it appeared correctly in the article.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

FACT:
Miraculous resurrection of one sort or another has been a recurrent theme or central doctrine of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Religious accounts represent the resurrection of individuals, as well as a general resurrection of humanity on Judgment Day. Christianity also uses the term to refer to God's resurrection of Jesus. Accounts of resurrection also occur in other religious traditions. With the advent of written records, the earliest known recurrent theme of resurrection was in the ancient Egyptian religion and it was especially focused upon an individual in the cults of Neith, Isis, and Osiris.
SOURCE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

I understand what is precisely meant by resurrection, that is why I cited my source now, and in my previous posts. Other religions which existed before the ADVENT of Christianity tell either a similar or the exact same stories with a different name for their God or Gods and they are as historically or unhistorically accurate as the history of Christ.
If you are indeed not out to make money off of a form of Christianity which you obviously are marketing as , would you then offer that course at no charge?

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<<Hi, I'm Anthony Horvath, aka sntjohnny, aka the person referenced in the article. I am speaking mainly to QT here.
You need to understand in the first place what is precisely meant by a resurrection.
In the first place it is not a 'bodily disappearance' as in your Buddhism examples. >>>

I understand what you've said, but the quote I commented on stated, "Athanatos Executive Director Anthony Horvath, one of the course's facilitators, says that resurrection is a claim that is unique to the Christian faith and is not present in any other religions."

If other religions have resurrection stories or a belief that God or a God-like representation resurrected, the claim to uniqueness or not present in any other religion, is false.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

<<Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?>>

I don't ask that G-d help me understand the second or third century writings of a madman. Whom I believe claimed to have received an apocalypse from Jesus (which was likely a generic hallucination induced by guilt over participation in murders) devised to allow him to infiltrate Early Churches so he could make a living, achieve community status, and ultimately make a name for himself- not JESUS. I follow the actual teachings of a faith much older than Paul's. Confounding Christianity and mucking it up with irrational human beliefs serves me no purpose. The Gospel as Jesus stated was simply do unto others as you'd have them do unto you, feed, clothe and care for the poor, widow, orphan, disenfranchised and by doing the extra greater good for others you see and believe
G-d. Why else would he say if you have seen me you've seen the father- the father can be seen in others since we're made in G-d's image.
Please stop making assumptions about my understanding, my understanding comes from Jesus, and my understanding of G-d and it's more than can be contained in one argument.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

<<If not, how can you simply regurgitate what you've read on pro-gay sites about what the Bible says about homosexuality and hope to hope to find any real understanding?>>

Regurgitation works both ways my friend. You might be regurgitating what you are TOLD in churches which have been expounding the same hatred for centuries by one form of bigot or another. Remarkably, the problem is compounded with evidence that implicates the very same organizations that produced and continue to produce tractate after tractate against Jews, slaves and women. Disguise it ALL you want, it's still far too obvious how you really think.

BTW, You can simply accuse me of posting without thinking, not having any real understanding but evidence of my knowledge came from critical thinking skills I have developed by reading commentary, literature, critical analysis written by scholars and pastors who are not GAY but see the issue closely associated to an anti-Jewish, anti-women, a pro-slavery mentality based strictly from fear, prejudice and a poor understanding of G-d. So before you assume that I only regurgitate and utilize progay sentiments found on internet sites, think again- you are merely making an assumption. In fact most of my understanding has come by attending of seminars, reading books and lectures led by scholars, doctors and theologians who greatly disagree with your understanding and not the internet. So your assumption is merely what it is- a guess based on unfounded evidence so you have to resort to attacks against me and my character.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

<<Do you believe the Bible, or at least what Jesus and his disciples wrote in the Bible? >>

As a Christian, I am not required to BELIEVE the BIBLE. I am required to believe JESUS. If the Bible is to be believed, why is it filled with human feelings, human stories, human understanding and human errors? Jesus and his teachings make me the type of Christian I am- not human understanding of an error ridden book many people use to bash, harm, divide and disenfranchise others.

<<Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?>>

Do you mean the passages PAUL or someone whom some attribute to PAUL and not what Jesus actually wrote?
Again if you want to argue the TRADITIONS early Christians started we can. If you want to argue what Jesus STATED, I'm all for it. Jesus didn't write PAUL'S speeches or letters, his doctrine is based on his REVELATION of Jesus, not his actual words.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Nowhere does Jesus say anything about homosexuality or premarital sex in the Bible. NOWHERE. The closest one can come is through PAUL, however Paul received his understanding through what he calls a vision or revelation of Jesus through the Holy Spirit-- he factually would never have had an actual meeting with the real Jesus, his doctrine is SECOND hand. If you want to say, CHRISTIAN traditions, creeds, sacraments etc. substantiate your belief that Jesus said homosexual or premarital sex is wron according to the bible, but literally, it is nowhere. I'm fine with that line of argument because it would be factual. But do not claim Bible Literalism then defer to Christian tradition, it's contradictory.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

<<Let me take a step back. I really only wanted to originally comment to Christians that it's not Christian to lump our human discomfort with homosexuality with homosexuality the sin as an excuse to bash gays. That's not love according to Jesus.>>

But in doing so, you have done exactly what you tried not to do. You have cited what you consider "proof in the text" to be a reason to defend anti-homosexual sentiment. If you carefully examine your words, you'll see what I mean.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

<<You're choosing to look at this in B/W without thinking critically about it, probably after reading pro-homosexual sites using these same arguments.>>

No, I am not seeing this as a B/W issue and I am using critical thinking to answer your responses, you however disagree with what is FACTUALLY in the text, what is being implied in the text and you are missing that there are other locations in the Bible which tell us why G-d did what G-d did and the explanation makes it to the NT as an analogy for why G-d considers people who disenfranchise the outcasts, widows, orphans, the poor and needy as abominable. Critical thinkers gather information from all senses, verbal and/or written expressions, reflection, observation, experience and reasoning. Critical thinking has its basis in intellectual criteria that go beyond subject-matter divisions and which include: clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, logic, significance and fairness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

<<Are you saying rape is implied in this story? >>

YES! It's as clear as a bell.

<<If so, then why were they wanting to rape the two males rather than the two virgin females.>>

Not TWO MALES, but in FACT, two angels. The "men" Lot takes into his home are FACTUALLY two ANGELS sent by G-d to destroy the city, because as it says in Ezekial 16:49 "This was the guilt (sin in some translations) of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy..." remember that?
The sin that cries out to heaven in Sodom came to the ears of G-d not because they were homosexuals, but because the Sodomites(agains the inhabitants of Sodom) had everything but they were arrogant, greedy and refused to assist those who were needy therfore G-d sought to remove them- it says so SEVERAL other places in the BIBLE including the NT. Some places I have listed already.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

<<Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts.>>

No he didn't say that, he said this...
Matthew chapter 5:27-28 (NLT) 27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

ADULTERY is a crime against another man's property, David committed adultery when he seduced Bathsheba, took her as his wife and killed her husband Uriah in order to "fix" the situation. That's how Jesus understood adultery. In relation to women, if a woman gave her husband a writ of divorce she would be required to remain single. The Woman at the Well parable proves my point. Therefore, it is not a FACT to say "Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts." Marriage in Jesus' vernacular was made a covenant with the act of sex. This is also why there are LAWS regarding RAPE i.e. Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 22:23-24

BTW, There is no mention of "outside marriage" in the Bible, since traditional marriage as we now understand it, DID NOT exist.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:14 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

It's in the Bible that any non-married sex is immoral, and there are references specifically to homosexuality, including in Sodom where Lot stayed.

There is no reference to "sex" in that story. If you mean Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd of angry people, then FACTUALLY the reference would be an act of violence RAPE. Rape is a sexual assault, not homosexuality.
You are terribly confused in regard to what this story implies. Both Ezekiel and Isaiah indicate in detail what the sin of Sodom was and exactly why God saw fit to destroy the city.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<The course would help "immunize" Christians against challenges posed by books like "The Da Vinci Code," he said.>>

What challenges does one face with a piece of fiction? Brown states, "this is a work of fiction intended as a mystery/detective novel." The DaVinci Code did not challenge me- but I guess I think more realistically than others. It was a great read, but the author explicitly states his book is fiction, and contains legends that many people for centuries have tried to explain. If DaVinci Code shook the foundations of some Christians' faith, they really do not know Christ.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

<<"The formation of the New Testament Canon seems very academic and wouldn't get covered in most Sunday school classes," said Horvath.>>

Not if one denies all the FACTS about why some books were chosen over others, which books contain the most errors and the agenda of Bible Literalists who are convinced the Bible is FACTUALLY written by "GOD."
All Horvath has to say is something close to what he is quoted about Christianity being unique regarding resurrection-- He can just tell his students what most fundamentalists say, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it!" He as good as said it when he denied the facts about other religions, which he may or may not really know anything about.

Apologetics Group to Examine Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

QT »

Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

<<Athanatos Executive Director Anthony Horvath, one of the course's facilitators, says that resurrection is a claim that is unique to the Christian faith and is not present in any other religions.>>

As the knowledge of different religions has grown, the bodily disappearance of Divine Heroes has been found to be common. In ancient times pagan similarities were explained by the early Christian writers, such as Justin Martyr, as the work of demons and Satan, with the intention of leading Christians astray. Gesar, the Savior of Tibet, at the end, chants on a mountain top and his clothes fall empty to the ground. The bodies of the Divine Gurus of Sikhism vanish after their deaths. There is a traditional spot in Jerusalem whence, while mounted, Muhammad and his horse both ascend into the sky.

Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern lists many Divine Heroes whose bodies disappear, or have more than one sepulchre. B. Traven, author of The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, wrote that the Inca Divine Hero, Virococha, walked away on the top of the sea and vanished. It has been thought that teachings regarding the purity and incorruptibility of the Divine Hero's human body are linked to this phenomenon. Perhaps, this is also to deter the practice of disturbing and collecting the hero's remains.
There are stories in Buddhism where the power of resurrection has been demonstrated on at least two famous occasions in Chan or Zen Buddhist tradition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

I'm of the opinion that I wouldn't take this man's course simply because he's out to steal money. He is lying in the quote above with the claim that resurrection is unique to Christianity.With the advent of written records, the earliest known recurrent theme of resurrection was in the ancient Egyptian religion and it was especially focused upon an individual in the cults of Neith, Isis, and Osiris.
If we study religions, esp. Gods, those believed to be Gods and literary figures have been thought to resurrect from the dead. It goes back to the most primitive of religions that insist one God evolved into another via resurrection.

'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

QT »

Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

As you can see from the scriptures, God was angry at Sodom and Gomorrah because they had plenty but denied the needy. It doesn't prove one's point to condemn Sodom and Gomorrah for sexual immorality, when it's obvious they were inhospitible to the needs of the most vulnerable within their own commun ities- i.e. widows, orphans, the poor. Jesus reflects a similar sentiment when he states I was hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me, thiursty and you gave me drink. He also points out in other scriptures, that those who have the ability to help others but don't are like the Sodomites(the people who inhabited the town, not a reference to homosexuals) but judgment will be more lenient on Sodom than on the generations to come, because they have an example which they refuse to follow. Traditionally, religion has corrupted the scriptures in order to justify personal prejudice against homosexuals, and iut's evident with the twisting of the Sodom and Gomorrah story.