'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

It's always easy to condemn someone else, isnt' it? It's always easy to get on your high horse and complain about how other people live their lives, right? It's always easy to trot out biblical passages to justify hate, ignorance, and intolerance.

Ariz. Leaders Mull Gay 'Marriage' Ban Anew

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

x: " I could make the same argument for diamonds and cubic zirconium, or gold and "fools gold", or even coffee."

And yet, you can still get a great cup of coffee in the US, or buy real diamonds and real gold. The value of those things has not been diminished one bit by fake diamonds.
Everyone who says that marriage is devalued by same sex marriage never ever come up with specifics. Even if it is true that it is devalued, then devalued by whom? Hetero people? Seems that heteros still keep getting married in Canada and Massachusetts. Just ask any person in Canada or Mass whether marriage is somehow devalued, and in what way, and you will get a blank stare.

Don’t Forget – God is Sovereign in the Political Process

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

I didn't know that God was a Republican. And if God is soveriegn in this process, then only Republicans would win.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Knight: I guess this is where you and I part company. I'm all for following God's word, but I don't see it as so clear. If you actually read the bible, it's filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, vague ideas and statements. Compound that with the fact that there have been tons of documented errors in transcribing the bible during the last 2000 years, the fact that some chapters were removed in the early days, and you have a real mess with trying to figure things out. Even something as clear as Thou Shalt Not Kill. Does that mean you can't ever kill, even in times of war? That you can't use capital punishment? Good people disagree on what this actually means.
So I have no problem challenging God's word, even if we could find out what it means. The jews have a long tradition of challenging god's word in the yeshivas, and there are three major branches of judaism, and several minor ones. If god's word is so clear, there should be only one. And how many Christian branches are there? Mormons consider themselves Christians, but others don't.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Slacker: So I guess Ted Haggard just couldn't follow and obey God, and didn't want to change? And such a weak person commanded the following of thousands? Very strange.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Yes, Andypro, I did answer your question. You just didn't like the answer. As I said, we are not discussing pedophiles, and I really don't know why you would even bring it up. I'm talking about gays, which is something I do know something about.
Furthermore, I squarelyl answered your question -- pedophilia is a mental illness, and recognized as such. No person can have a normal healthy relationship with someone who is very young. But with gays, we can and do have normal healthy relationships.
You don't like that, you don't agree with it, but it is the truth. What more do you wamt me to say on the matter?

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

John: "One last point. God, and Jesus, and Paul, all *do* state that there are greater and lesser "rewards" in heaven - degrees. Maybe someone who has that scripture could quote some of it here."

Great. Then I would like one Christian to admit that a celebate homosexual might have greater rewards in heaven than any heterosexual Christian who ever has sex, even once. I would like to see that enshrined as church doctrine, even. But I'm not holding my breath.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Thanks John. That's exactly my point, however. If I am gay, and my heart is with Jesus, then who are you to judge whether I am a sinner or not? The point isn't whether rich people get to heaven, just as it isn't whether gay people get to heaven.

If you allow such intricacies and deeply evolved interpretations for rich people, why not for gays?

Slacker: I understand your predicament. But the difference is that once you do find a woman, you can get married and have sex. You always will have that hope. For me, what everyone here is saying, that I can never have that hope, because even IF I actually get married to a man in say, Massachusetts or Canada, I still can never have sex with him. Your religion gives you hope, but it eliminates it entirely for me.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Of course having sex with a minor is wrong. Why? Because presumptively, minors cannot give informed consent. Same thing with animals. Therefore, regardless of whether God made someone a pedophile doesn't remove the fact that at least one party cannot agree with a mature mind.
However, two adults having sex, or even -- get this -- having a long term romantic relationship is not immoral by any means.
But this is what really gets me -- whenever I ask about gay relationships, people who oppose gay relationships bring up every situation EXCEPT gay relationships, and then demand that I defend that. Inevitably, because I am for gays, they start piling on everything else -- polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia, and demand that I must be in favor of those.
First, it is extremely offensive to me to have gay relationships lumped in with those. If you can't understand why, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. Do I ask you to defend all forms of Christianity because you are a Christian? like Mormonism, Zorastroiasm, the snake handlers, and the other thousands of forms of Christian groups that are out there?
No -- in fact, Christians will always answer, they are not Christians, so we don't have to even discuss them.
Same thing. Bestiality, polygamy, pedophilia -- all these have nothing to do with homosexuality. I do not argue for or against them -- let those who do do it. So let's keep the topic on point, which is whether my relationship with my boyfriend should be honored or dumped in the trash.

Poll: Most Americans Want a Biblical Leader as President

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

This is surprising. I thought George Bush was the president that Christians wanted. He says that he follows Jesus and the bible in all his decisions, and he is supported by fundamentalists more than any other. Bush is everything that is described in the article above.
Don't all of you consider him the best president the US has ever had because of his biblical beliefs? Or is he not religious enough?

Unity in Diversity

Rand503 »

Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

When I saw the title, Unity through Diversity, I was given hope. Hope that a Christian leader would finally understand that there are many, many religions out there, many of which are not even Christian, but that they all share common goals. I hoped that finally someone would address critical issues common to us all, like poverty, environmental damage, the fact that the world is filled with hate and fear against anyone different, and a belief that we are all here to help one another.
I was sadly mistaken. Colson doesn't talk about unity at all, but rather exclusion. A return to one form of Christianity, a return to us vs. everyone else. Perhaps I read it wrong, but I see no unity in diversity, but just a call to fundamentalism, and to hell with anyone else who disagrees.
Am I wrong?

Anglicans Issue Draft in Attempt to Avoid Schism

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

How sad. As Bishop Demond Tutu (the Nobel Peace prize winner) said, they should be looking at what unites us, not what divides us.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

I see. So gays are acceptable as long as they remain lifelong celebates. That's a pretty heavy burden to put on us. We didn't ask to be gay, so why should we have to shoulder a burden greater than yours? That simply isn't fair.
Now, I guess you can say that no one said that life isn't fair. I would agree. But I was taught that God is fair and just. Now, suppose you say that if I'm gay, I remain celebate, then I should have a special place in heaven, because I sacrificed in a way that no other heterooo has to. But God never says that. I get nothing extra! So fairness has nothing to do with this. Why worship a god who isn't fair and just? At the least, you have to admit that God is anything BUT fair and just.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Well, then, John, few churches can call themselves Christian. God is very clear that a rich man has as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel through a needle. Yet few churches I know of, even fundamentalist ones, say that riches are a sin, or that wealthy people have little chance of getting into heaven. Therefore, any church that does not preach this is certainly no Christian church. Where does your's fall on this scale?
Seems that this is a much bigger issue that gays, but then, it's always been easier to pick on a small despised minority than to take on people who are pillars of the church, right?

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

By the way, the overseers said it would take years for Ted to overcome his homosexuality. Now, he has the best people, is highly motivated, and still can't be hetero? What's the problem? Surely, of all people, if being gay is just a choice, then he could choose very easily. Since you folks have all the answers with regards to homosexuality, I would really like to know who Ted can't be hetero.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

Again, nine people gave thumbs down to my post about Exodus. Exodus was founded in the early 70s to help gays leave homosexuality. They refuse to release their 'cure' rate, which is odd. If they have good success, it would be in their own interest to trumpet that. But they admit that it's very difficult for any gay person to change, and that for some, change simply won't come. So much for that notion that with God anything is possible.
So you are giving this a thumbs down because you just don't like these facts? or what?

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

It's interesting that four people gave my post about the penguins a thumbs down. Why? None of them bothered to answer my question, so I'll plead it again. How is it that if homosexuality is so unnatural and against God's will that it has been observed in most species? Any zoologist can tell you that. So are the penguins, the dolphins, and even dogs, choosing to be gay? Or are they just acting out who they are?

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

Contrary to your assumption, John, there are in fact quite a few Christian religions that have no problem with two men being in a loving, faithful and monogamous relationship. You may not like that, and you may disagree with it. However, they exist. Perhaps Ted Haggard couldn't lead that particular church, but he could in others. And that doesn't even take into account the many many priests and ministers and bishops of various demonimnations that are in fact gay and/or having gay relationships, clandestine though they may be.

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:50 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 5

Funny, homosexuality has been observed in most animal species. Most famously, there are the pair of penguins in the NY Zoo that are two males, who have sex, are monogamous, disease free, and actually adopted an orphaned penguin.

Now, either they made the choice to be gay, or God made them that way. Are you really going to argue that penguins choose to be gay?

Haggard Ends Restoration Process with Overseers

Rand503 »

Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:47 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

The real sin is that Ted lived in a sham marriage. he ruined his own life, and that of his wife's. Had he accepted his homosexuality earlier, he could have been in a healthy relationship with another man, instead of pretending. His wife certainly deserves a man who would love her in the way she should be. This is why all the condemnation by Christians is so destructive, not only to gays, but to the people around them.