How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:09 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Citsonga,

I've seen your kind of "drive by atheist" before, I'm not sure if you're a high-schooler who's just read the latest Dawkins book, or if you're a Scientologist that's trying to divert attention away from the main thrust of the argument. Your tactics and phrasing is fairly consistent with both, but it doesn't really matter does it? The article and the discussion that followed were a comparison of Scientology to Christianity, and a question of whether or not they're compatible. That is all.

If you actually wanted a genuine discussion this isn't where you'd go to find it, you'd find a serious apologetics website, or go to one of the many, many boards where you find people with every possible philosophical point of view. Instead you came here and decided it be fun (lulzy) to yell "Religion is irrational and man made" and try to see if you could get a rise out of the netizens here.

You're not even *trying* man! Tell me do you have any training, education, studies, or what not other than surfing Sceptics Bible and the Dawkins forums? Have you even done that? Wittgenstein? Flew? Pascal? C.S. Lewis? Kreeft? Ring any bells?

That said I suppose I *could* say that if you make a positive claim (and yes saying that all religion are man-made *is* a positive claim) that goes against accepted knowledge then *you* are the one that have to back it up. I suppose I could say that your points were little more than going "You're all the same, and I won't be bothered even considering anything else." I suppose I could say that one paragraph or two line posts that contain no arguments, no new point of view, and contain deliberate provocations, is generally the mark of a troll rather than a debater.

However I don't want to say that since you're posts are off topic. The topic at hand is a comparison of Christianity and Scientology, most specifically to see if they're compatible or not. It's not a comparison of philosophical materialism with various brands of religious philosophy.

Flagging and deleting inappropriate or off-topic posts is common in all web-communities, don't flatter yourself to think that you're being flagged because of your Iconoclastic Truths. You're being off-topic, and you're getting what most boards do to off-topic drive-by trolls.

Once more if you want a serious debate go find a place where such debates are on topic and appropriate. If not, well I hate to classify people, but here:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/atheist.htm

I apologise for the length of this post, but I had to make my points quickly, and I'll probably be unable to post again for quite some time. Good luck, God bless, and have a good day.

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:01 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

I agree entirely, it is silly to judge a religion based on the rantings of an actor. That's why I've included links to Scientology websites, quoted L. Ron Hubbard himself (and given links to audiofiles) and so forth to explain my point of view. If you're interested just scroll a little further down in the comments section.

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:06 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

Not quite, the very essence of the beliefs is that you are an immortal spirit being that's being held back by a collection of bad events that have occurred in this life or in previous lives. Once you've been cleared or cured of all these beliefs you will regain the various abilities and powers a Thetan should have, never get sick, have a perfect memory and so forth. This needless to say is incompatible with Christianity.

Then you ask me not to believe in everything I read? If I can't trust L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology's own websites to give me accurate information about Scientology, then who can I trust? Are you saying www.scientology.org and L. Ron Hubbard are wrong about Scientology?

However if I were to take you seriously, if the essence to your belief is that we're immortal spirit beings who are troubled by bad deeds, well why do I need Scientology? I already know about souls, and this carpenter from Judea who seems to have a good bead on how to get rid of your sins.

So either you're incompatible with Christianity (according to what I've read on www.scientology.org and heard from L. Ron Hubbard own lips) or I don't need Scientology (according to you). Which is it?

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:47 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Near death experiences are not part of the dogma of any Christian church that I know of, so I fail to see how they're in any way relevant. As for the early Christian Church ut did not believe in past lives. Some early theologians, like Origen, hypothesized that there was a pre-existance of souls, and there are Jewish schools of thought that believe in a Chamber of Guf that holds all the souls that are yet to be born. Some claim that Jeremiah 1:5 refers to this Chamber of Guf. This isn't a belief in past lives though, pre-existence only means that you were held in storage, until it was time for you to be born, and when you've lived your life, your one and only life.

These believes were at any rate rejected by Christianity, along with many other heresies such as non-trinitarianism, but even if you accept them they still don't support your case.

What you're doing is basically trying to muddy the waters here, by throwing up such a barrage of facts that I'll give up, or be unable to answer. No such luck I'm afraid!

Now for your second claim, as we've already proven Scientology is incompatible with Christianity, but at the lower levels of Scientology many Christians may be unaware of this. They may still attend Church, and say their prayers, it's not until they reach the higher levels that they're told to make a choice.

However I'll give you a parable: imagine a Christian with an idol Astarte in his rooms, and burns incense before it. He would still be able to attend Christian church, because there's no Church Police snooping around in his private life. He might even think that his behaviour is compatible with Christianity, especially if all the other Astarte worshippers told him it was, but if he spoke to a theologian he'd get an entirely different answer.

Sure you can trick a Christian into thinking that Scientology and Christianity are compatible, but that doesn't make it so.

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:00 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

First let me repeat an important statement: If Christianity is not compatible with Scientology, then any Christian that gets involved in Scientology is endangering his immortal soul. Scientology claims to be compatible with Christianity, but is it?

thorstenovergaard you say that I should read Scientology books and websites to solve the problem, very well I'll do just that then. I will use the official website of Scientology to make my arguments for me.

"In Scientology, you are given the tools to handle upsets and aberrations from past lives that adversely affect you in present time, thus freeing you to live a much happier life."

http://www.scientology.org/religion/catechism/pg011.html

We also have L. Ron Hubbard to fill us in further:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajdh2Yda568

Reincarnation is reincarnation is reincarnation, whether you call it Past Lives, the Whole Track or a Potzrebie. And whatever you call it such teachings are fundamentally incompatible with Christianity. Given these genuine Scientology sources it's fairly clear that Scientology does believe in reincarnation.

Then there are Hubbards views on Ethics and Morality, you can hear them if you listen to the Youtube video. You can also read the code itself here:

http://www.scientologie.tm.fr/wis/wiseng/33/33-hon.htm

Several of the points on that Code of Honour goes against the Christian virtues of humility and repentance. He is also against anyone making or enforcing a moral code, because people can't live up to it. Now the whole point to Christianity is that people cannot live up to the moral code God sets down, that's why we need salvation! So that's another reason why Scientology is not compatible with Christianity.

A third reason is the idea of Operating Thetan. In Scientology parlance you're a Thetan, a spirit/energy being who just happens to be attached to a body. In Christian terms this would be your Soul. If you reach the levels of Operating Thetan you are supposedly able to control or affect Matter, Energy, Space, and Time using only your inherent Thetan powers.

http://www.whatisscientology.org/html/Part03/Chp13/pg0247.html
http://www.scientology.org/religion/catechism/pg041.html

Needless to say this is also entirely incompatible with Christianity, it hints of path of salvation separate from that offered by Christ; once you're an OT why would you need salvation? The promised powers are also perilously close to magic, especially since you need multiple initiations to receive them.

Of course you're free to practise magic, or to have your own religion. However I think it's deceitful to claim that this is somehow compatible with Christianity, when we can clearly see that it isn't!

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:51 am Agree: 14   Disagree: 2

It is completly impossible to be a Scientologist and a Christian at the same time.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, - Hebrews 9:27

The teaching of reincarnation clashes fundamentally with Christianity, which teaches that humans get ONE life, and after that comes judgement.

Furthermore there's this quote:

"Anyway, Everyman is then shown to have been crucified so don't think that it's an accident that this crucifixion, they found out that this applied. Somebody somewhere on this planet, back about 600 BC, found some pieces of R6, and I don't know how they found it, either by watching madmen or something, but since that time they have used it and it became what is known as Christianity. The man on the Cross. There was no Christ. But the man on the cross is shown as Everyman. So of course each person seeing a crucified man, has an immediate feeling of sympathy for this man. Therefore you get many PCs who says they are Christ. Now, there's two reasons for that, one is the Roman Empire was prone to crucify people, so a person can have been crucified, but in R6 he is shown as crucified." Ron Hubbard, The Class VIII [Auditor's] Course, "Krakatoa and Beyond", Oct 3, 1968, aboard the Apollo.

Here's a recording of Hubbard himself:

http://www.xenu.net/archive/multimedia.html#nochrist

So you can hear that quote above straight from the horse's mouth! There are lots of other excellent sound bites on that page, so you can hear what Hubbard himself had to say.

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:43 am Agree: 12   Disagree: 2

For many members of Anonymous (it's a Big Tent organisation) the Theology of Scientology isn't the main objection. If you're religious then Scientology probably contradicts your religion, but as I said for many that's not the main concern.

One big concern is how the "Church" of Scientology (CoS) has "fixed, mandatory donation", and how you're required to pay for books and services. I don't mean $50 for reserved seats, or a subscription to your Church magazine. They charge in the several thousands of dollars, and that's just wrong. If someone comes to your Church, and asks to learn the teaching of Christ do you tell him the Good News, or do you present him with a bill?

Google: Scientology cost

Or go here: http://www.sweenytod.com/cos/pricelist.html

That should start to clue you in that there's something wrong, something seriously wrong. Then there's the bizarre theology, there's the deceitful claim that they're compatible with all religions, there's the money, there's so many things wrong.

I've written two other posts in short succession, and I won't write again except to answer any questions that are raised. I don't mean to spam your list, but too many people think that the CoS is just a joke.

In my previous comments I've made suggestions that you google certain terms, and I hope you do. The truth is amply documented, there are any number of studies by reputable groups (such as the Greek and German government), and the information is easy to find if you go looking. So please take ten minutes to google some of this, check out the websites, and make up your own minds.

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:56 am Agree: 8   Disagree: 2

Let us look at 1 Corinthians 7:12-15, and ask what do you do if a loved one should be lured away from Christ? We're called to pray for them, and to try to gently guide them back to the faith. Certainly the bonds of the family should never be broken!

The Church of Scientology (CoS) claims that they bring families together, yet they have a policy they call a "Disconnect". If your loved ones stand between you and further "enlightenment" you're required to cut of all ties, and have nothing more to do with them. The CoS claims that a disconnect is a last resort. Let me ask you this, what kind of religion would have it as any kind of resort?

Consider this too: If a loved one becomes a Scientologist, and you try to bring them back to Christ, the CoS will order them to break of all contact with you!

David Miscavige, the leader of the CoS, won't talk to his own niece Jenna Miscavige (currently called Jenna Hall) after she left the CoS. When she grew up she only saw her parents once a year, if she was lucky. She was only 16 when they left the CoS, but she decided to stay, rather than leave with some people that she never really got to know.

Google: disconnect scientology

Here's another affront to the dignity of the family. The CoS has an elite paramilitary branch called the Sea Org, the members sign a billion year contract; remember the CoS believes in reincarnation! In return for working 14-16 hours a day they receive $50 a week, and discounts on CoS courses.

Like many things about the CoS this is a mixture of the horrific and the ridiculous, we shouldn't laugh though. The members of the Sea Org are not permitted to have children. If a female member becomes pregnant she'll be ordered to have an abortion, and they have various means to pressure her to agreeing.

If you have friends or acquaintances to who say they are pro-choice, ask them what they think about *forced* abortions.

This link has several testimonies from former members:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/seaorgabortion1.html

The CoS goes against everything that Christians hold dear, from the sanctity of the family, to telling the truth, to the love of Christ.

Love of Christ and love of our fellow man requires us to speak out. I advice you all to read Matthew 35, the peopled trapped in the CoS, and the victims that have left, and the critics persecuted; aren't they "one of the least of these my brethren"?

How to Share Your Faith Using Tom Cruise's Scientology Rant

SilentBefore »

Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:45 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

I am reminded of Matthew 35:34-40, let me quote the final part:

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

We are called upon to help those harmed by the Church of Scientology (CoS) and those still trapped inside it. I have let my fears keep me silent for far too long. The reason that I was afraid was that the CoS persecutes its critics, if you want examples you can google Paulette Cooper, Operation Freak Out, and Operation Snow White. If you're not troubled by a weak stomach google "The Unfunny Truth". That will explain why I was afraid.

I pray that God forgives me, but it's easy to look the other way if you, yourself, could get in trouble.

Anonymous has come, and it's safe to speak up, and Christians should speak up. However I hope you will criticize the evil deeds and deceitfulness of Scientology. Indeed the deceitfulness should really worry any Christian.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." - Matthew 7:15

Can you be a member of the CoS and a Christian at the same time? That is an important question; if the answer is no then any Christian that joins the CoS is lured away from Christ!

Consider a Christian that has joined the CoS, he is devout, prays every day, and studies the bible. As he reaches the higher levels he'll be told that his devotion to Christ is holding him back. He'll also be given statements such as: "The man on the Cross. There was no Christ. But the man on the cross is shown as Everyman," and "Somebody somewhere on this planet, back about 600 BC, found some pieces of R6, and I don't know how they found it, either by watching madmen or something. But since that time they have used it and it became what is known as Christianity."

I think this makes it clear that the CoS and Christianity are not compatible, and that it's deceitful to claim that they are. Such deceit alone should be reason to speak out against the CoS.

This link may help:
http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/christian.htm

Or google: Christianity scientology