SBellam - just curious how do you know that the only proof that the Bible is God's infallible Word is His Word? This to me is assuming that the only thing someone who believes the Bible to be true can use is the Bible. While those same rules don't apply to the person who claims that the Bible is not. For example someone might say science disproves the Bible. In other words I would argue that...more

SBellam - just curious how do you know that the only proof that the Bible is God's infallible Word is His Word?

This to me is assuming that the only thing someone who believes the Bible to be true can use is the Bible. While those same rules don't apply to the person who claims that the Bible is not. For example someone might say science disproves the Bible.

In other words I would argue that there is more than the Bible to give proof to the fact that the Bible is God's Word.

But I will say that this does tend to veer off of the discussion or point I was making - which is that if you are having a discussion about the Christian view of Hell then one needs to reference the Christian authority on Hell which is the Bible and it is not necessary to include every new voice (ie Rob Bell) in your considerations since by definition for Christians the Bible is the standard. Any denial of this fact puts you outside of orthodoxy and therefore you cannot claim to follow Christianity as taught in the Scriptures.less

Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (NIV) Greek version of Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Notice that the same word used for eternal life (aionios) is the word used for everlasting punishment (aionios). Same word used for eternal. I can't se...more

Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (NIV)

Greek version of Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice that the same word used for eternal life (aionios) is the word used for everlasting punishment (aionios).

Same word used for eternal. I can't see how it can mean two different things in the same verse, so I am left to either say Hell is as eternal as Heaven or neither are eternal.less

Oh and in case anyone was wondering I am an unloving, uncaring hate monger, who doesn't live in the real world, only cares about being right on paper and not what's right in my heart. I use only whatever version of the Bible you despise, and want to oppress people with my judgmental version of Christianity. I don't know Rob Bell but I have called him a heretic (and we know that we can only call so...more

Oh and in case anyone was wondering I am an unloving, uncaring hate monger, who doesn't live in the real world, only cares about being right on paper and not what's right in my heart. I use only whatever version of the Bible you despise, and want to oppress people with my judgmental version of Christianity. I don't know Rob Bell but I have called him a heretic (and we know that we can only call someone a heretic if we know them personally, not because of what they have written. Also I like walking on the beach under the moonlight and listening to classical music.less

One does not have to read Rob Bell's book to have an informed Biblical opinion on Hell, but one cannot have an informed Biblical opinion on Hell without reading the Bible. Rob Bell = fallible human being Bible = God's infallible Word The imagined concept of a debate is not because of the lack of clarity of Scriptures but because of the lack of reading them and reading some false heretic'...more

One does not have to read Rob Bell's book to have an informed Biblical opinion on Hell, but one cannot have an informed Biblical opinion on Hell without reading the Bible.

Rob Bell = fallible human being

Bible = God's infallible Word

The imagined concept of a debate is not because of the lack of clarity of Scriptures but because of the lack of reading them and reading some false heretic's writings instead.less

Dwights - Thank you for responding to my request for Biblical support. We come to a barrier however in the dialogue which I can see no way around. I respect deeply your passion for defending your position and anyone who takes the time to respond to someone else with insightful comments is worthy of respect even if two viewpoints disagree. In the end I think that your response has highlited the ...more

Dwights - Thank you for responding to my request for Biblical support. We come to a barrier however in the dialogue which I can see no way around. I respect deeply your passion for defending your position and anyone who takes the time to respond to someone else with insightful comments is worthy of respect even if two viewpoints disagree.

In the end I think that your response has highlited the inevitable barrier that we face. If you accept apostolic succession as inferred by Scripture and I reject apostolic succession and accept Sola Scriptura - then there can be no way to come to a satisfactory conclusion. The two are irreconcilable because they claim two different sources of authority.

If the protestant is honest then they must admit that they reject the pope because they believe in the priesthood of the believer - 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

This is essentially one of the reasons we hold to Sola Scriptura - because each believer is capable of understanding and obeying Scripture - and that it does not require another man - but rather the Holy Spirit - John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

So in this case for the Protestant Papal authority is not necessary - but as God said to Joshua -- Joshua 1:8 - Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.

A verse such as this affirms the idea tha the believer will not only read, but understand Scripture and ultimately obey it.

This is why I think some people are constantly going after the Pope so to speak because it is an authority issue.less

Dwights - As I thought about your last statement on accepting the Pope as an authority for interpreting Scripture I would ask that you provide me with something to support that idea Biblically. I know that one can make the case that Jesus passed His authority on to the Apostles and they transferred it successively (though I disagree with that - but that is a rabbit trail) but where do you see the ...more

Dwights - As I thought about your last statement on accepting the Pope as an authority for interpreting Scripture I would ask that you provide me with something to support that idea Biblically. I know that one can make the case that Jesus passed His authority on to the Apostles and they transferred it successively (though I disagree with that - but that is a rabbit trail) but where do you see the authority becoming centralized to one man?

If there is sufficient evidence Biblically that papal authority is true then obviously Sola Scriptura becomes a moot point.

Let us not use links to articles for this one I would like to see how this is reasoned out from the Bible.less

So if I understand you correctly Dwights you are saying that infallible interpretation is necessary for us to understand the truth of Scripture, and secondly that there is indeed someone who can infallibly interpret Scripture other than the average individual in the pew? (I am guessing you are going to say that is the Pope, but I want to make sure I am not putting words in your mouth).

Unfortunately this conversation has jumped all over the place without ever sticking to the central issue and resolving it (Sola Scriptura) before anything else. Dwights you agree on 4/5 points I stated - the one that you disagreed on which is perhaps the most important point of reference for the basis of any discussion on the issue of Sola Scriptura - is that Scripture is not open to multiple ...more

Unfortunately this conversation has jumped all over the place without ever sticking to the central issue and resolving it (Sola Scriptura) before anything else.

Dwights you agree on 4/5 points I stated - the one that you disagreed on which is perhaps the most important point of reference for the basis of any discussion on the issue of Sola Scriptura - is that Scripture is not open to multiple interpretation. While I agree that many people interpret the Bible different ways - I firmly believe that the author (God) only has one interpretation - His own. I base this primarily on a verse such as 2 Peter 1:20 - That Scripture is not of any private interpretation.

Essentially what I will posit is this Sola Scriptura is an important facet of theological worldview because if the Bible such as in 2 Peter 1:20 is not of private interpretation then it must be a standard. Coupled with the fact that in John 1:1 - The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and then in John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, essentially means that Sola Scriptura is claiming Christ to be our sole authority. This can also be supported by such verses as Jesus saying in Matthew 4:4 - that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Also very importantly Sola Scriptura cannot be used without the other 5 solas in context - the protestant claim is one that is multifaceted - Sola Scriptura - by the Word of God alone - Sola fide - By faith alone - Sola Gratia - by grace alone - Solus Christus - by Christ alone - Soli Deo Gloria - to the glory of God alone. Each is a pillar of Biblical truth and if any are removed then the whole faith becomes null and void.

From what I have read RC's would not agree with 3/5 of the solas - Sola Scriptura - Sola Gratia - and Sola Christus. Sola Scriptura for the addition of traditions - Sola Gratia by the requirement of salvation through the RC church requirements - and Sola Christus from the perspective of both purgatorial salvation and Mary in an elevated position.

But I am not mentioning those to spawn another rabbit trail, rather to simply fit Sola Scriptura in context.less

I'm not going after you at all - nothing I am saying here is in relationship to a specific poster (except Dwights). I am trying to point out that the impasse is happening due to seemingly identical objectives - ie Prove to me your point is biblical. No offense meant so please take none

As I read over all the comments (and I must say I can't keep up to the pace of rapid fire response) it has become clear to me that there is an impasse in the conversation. Here is why I think that - Dwights is saying prove to me that Sola Scriptura is Biblical, and the almost exact opposite question is being asked by others of the protestant stripe - prove to me that it isn't. There is no way ...more

As I read over all the comments (and I must say I can't keep up to the pace of rapid fire response) it has become clear to me that there is an impasse in the conversation. Here is why I think that - Dwights is saying prove to me that Sola Scriptura is Biblical, and the almost exact opposite question is being asked by others of the protestant stripe - prove to me that it isn't.

There is no way to come to a conclusion when both sides are demanding the same thing from opposite ends. Proof texts are going to be highly subjective when they are not used in context. My suggestion is that we consider some parameters of what we do agree upon. If one person rejects the way in which the Bible is interpreted by another there can never be a satisfactory resolution. In this case when 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is quoted ad naseum as proof and rejected as proof - then there is no way to bring about a true understanding.

So Dwights here is my proposition of agreed terms - if they cannot be agreed upon then it is unlikely that the conversation can move forward with any true purpose.

1) The Bible is God's Word
2) God's Word supercedes all other sources of authority
3) Tradition has its place but it is trumped by Biblical authority
4) There are NOT multiple interpretations of Scripture
5) The Bible literally means what it says

If you are in agreement with those things then we might have a starting point of common ground.less

Dwights can you please provide your understanding or definition of Sola Scriptura - because in any discussion that is intelligent there must be a definition of the terms. In this case it would be impossible to prove Sola Scriptura if your definition is different then someone else's. Also it would be really helpful (and fair) for you to define Biblical support for extra-biblical teachings. ...more

Dwights can you please provide your understanding or definition of Sola Scriptura - because in any discussion that is intelligent there must be a definition of the terms.

In this case it would be impossible to prove Sola Scriptura if your definition is different then someone else's. Also it would be really helpful (and fair) for you to define Biblical support for extra-biblical teachings.

I look forward to your answer if you take the time to respond.less

Even if a term is invented like Calvinism or Sola Scriptura, that does not mean that they are man made inventions. The word trinity does not appear in the Scripture yet those who hold to orthodox Christianity affirm that the Godhead is indeed three in one. Sola Scriptura is not an invention of the Reformation it is an astute observation of the reality that Scripture itself points us to. Sola Sc...more

Even if a term is invented like Calvinism or Sola Scriptura, that does not mean that they are man made inventions. The word trinity does not appear in the Scripture yet those who hold to orthodox Christianity affirm that the Godhead is indeed three in one. Sola Scriptura is not an invention of the Reformation it is an astute observation of the reality that Scripture itself points us to.

Sola Scriptura literally means by the Scriptures alone, Jesus Himself is the Word made flesh. Jesus said - man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. The dividing line is this - Sola Scriptura affirms that any traditions that are taught outside of the Scriptures are not Biblical requirements for salvation. Jesus said in Matthew 5 that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees (ie those who are zealous with their own traditions) you will not be going to heaven.

I do not doubt that many Roman Catholics deeply love and honor their church and their leaders, but that does not mean that Biblically it is true. Peter wasn't the first pope (James was the head of the early church in Acts). There have been questionable if not morally reprehensible church leaders in Roman Catholicism and in the Protestant world. So rather than trusting in man - we trust in the Word of God --> Sola Scriptura.less

Does anyone actually believe that this is groundbreaking? I have been listening to this kind of thing for the last 25 years. Second why do we think that the newest is the best? Seriously think about this - the church does not need new paradigms of thinking, it needs to be faithful to the Scriptures. And to be honest this is just emergent blah blah blah for the next 15 minutes of fame. When ...more

Does anyone actually believe that this is groundbreaking? I have been listening to this kind of thing for the last 25 years.

Second why do we think that the newest is the best? Seriously think about this - the church does not need new paradigms of thinking, it needs to be faithful to the Scriptures. And to be honest this is just emergent blah blah blah for the next 15 minutes of fame.

When did Matthew 28 change? - Go and preach the Gospel, disciple, rinse and repeat - why are we ineffective? - because when you don't do things with the power of the Holy Spirit behind you - aka anything that is not part of God's plan it fails.less

I love it when people say Jesus hates religion James 1:27 - Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.