Six Worldviews You’re Competing Against

The Icelander »

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"So you think that a Creator creating from nothing is somehow just as impossible as something coming into existence all by itself? Is it self-created? Interesting!!!"

You're confusing the Big Bang with abiogenesis. The former deals with the origin of the universe. The latter deals with the origin of life on Earth. Both are separate fields of inquiry, since the origin of life on earth happened 9 - 10 billion years after the formation of the universe.

The June 2007 issue of Scientific American has a great article on abiogenesis. Also, A Brief History of Time is a great resource for cosmology and Big Bang theory.

Six Worldviews You’re Competing Against

The Icelander »

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

"Without a Creator, you're left to believe in "spontaneous generation", the idea that life suddenly appeared out of thin air."

Here's the bottom line for me: With a creator you're left to believe that life was created out of thin air. Spontaneous generation doesn't mean that plants and animals rose out of the ground in their current form. All it means is that somewhere, somehow, molecules started copying themselves. From there, evolution took over. That's easier for me to consider valid in the face of the available evidence than an omnipotent being creating everything, including life and then leaving no overtly convincing evidence of its existence.

"I apologize if I have characterized you as evil just because you disagree with me on the validity of Christianity."

I'm sorry if you thought I was accusing you of mischaracterizing me, which wasn't my intent. The person who did the mischaracterizing was Rick Warren. Just a tip, Mr. Warren: If you want people to listen to your sermons it would be best if you don't call them evil first. (Not that I'd be in church anyway.)

"Whatever your take on it, thanks for giving me much to think about and for the tip on learning more about Quantum Physics."

I'm happy to hear I've made someone's day better and expanded their horizons.

Six Worldviews You’re Competing Against

The Icelander »

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"Either the universe is eternal and self-existent(which the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says is not the case), or it was created by an eternal and self-existent being.To say that it just happened by chance is non-sense"

I'd suggest reading up on quantum mechanics. Happening by chance is a perfectly valid scientific construct. Of particular interest is the thought experiment known as Schrodinger's Cat.

"If I take your TV set, how can it be wrong if there is no objective right or wrong?"

Rights only exist insofar as we agree as a society that rights exist. And the best argument for stating rights exist is that we've seen that the consequences are better if we respect human rights as universally as possible.

"[T]he evidence provided by Theists may not be convincing to the Atheist, but proof is different than persuasion. Indeed Christians have philosophical proofs (Cosmological argument, Transcendental argument, etc.), Historical proofs, and more."

Yes, and so do many other religious groups. This makes their claims no more or less valid than those of Christian theists. But if you think that you can make a persuasive argument based on "The bible said it therefore it's true," you're mistaken.

Don't get me wrong; as humanist I feel that human rights, including the rights both to believe and not to believe, are universal. I do not wish to outlaw religion anymore than I wish to live in a theocracy. I am just sick of being portrayed as evil, immoral, depressed, and nihilistic by theists, including Christians.

Six Worldviews You’re Competing Against

The Icelander »

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:38 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"Without God, there are only a couple of options. Either the universe is eternal and self-existent or everything did come about by random chance. Is there another possibility?"

Yes, but random chance is the cornerstone of quantum mechanics and at the scales that the Big Bang originated from, quantum mechanics has a significant effect. And until we see evidence of a creator, which has yet to be found, the proper view is to assume one does not exist. Otherwise we would have to assume that every mythical creature we can imagine exists. I mean, you can't disprove that there aren't pixies making the electricity flow through a wire, right?

"Some evolutionists have tried to get around this by ascribing 'god-like' qualities to nature, or using 'Natural Selection' as the explanation. Selection denotes a being capable of choosing."

The cornerstone of evolution is natural selection, and it does not imply the capability of choosing. All that natural selection means is that the beings unfit to live to breeding age and procreate will not pass their genes to the next generation. This is what's called being selected against. It's simply talking about natural genomic variations. A conscious element is never implied.

"If you say it has meaning because you say so, then it is subjective."

And what's wrong with subjectivity? I don't pretend to say what others lives should mean to them. If you find your meaning to life in acquiring wealth, good for you. As long as you do not violate the rights of others you should be free to live your life as you see fit.

It seems to me that Christians and other theists have a problem with uncertainty. The arguments against atheism tend to be about how life is "just random chance" and how atheists have "subjective morals." This says a lot about how the minds of Christians work.

Six Worldviews You’re Competing Against

The Icelander »

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:07 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

While I can't speak for the other "worldviews" because I do not hold them (well, okay, maybe a little hedonism), I think your characterization of atheism is flawed.

While it is true that atheists or "naturalists" do not think god exists, this is far from thinking everything arose from random chance. Evolution is predictable adaptation to an environment. There is a small element of randomness, but it is, for the most part, entirely non-random.

And just because I do not think that god exists does not mean my life has no purpose. I am capable of finding my own meaning in my life. I live to better the lives of those I encounter. I have no need for a reward because these actions are rewards themselves. So your statement that naturalists have no value, meaning or purpose to their lives is false. I am proof of that.

The reason the Earth is situated on its axis how far it is from the sun is not a miracle of creation. We see the Earth the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it, or we would have evolved differently.

In other words: The Earth was not created for us, we evolved to suit most of the conditions on the Earth. What you are doing is like a water in a glass remarking at how well the glass was made to suit its form.

And it is far from perfect. Most of the places on the Earth are inhospitable to people. They can be too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, or even filled with poisonous fumes. The sun can give us horrible burns if we're in it too much. Are these, too, evidences of a designer, or of a species that has evolved to suit a niche and whose intelligence allowed it to spread around the globe?

The reason we have been such a successful species is not because of our environment, but because of our ability to learn and adapt our behavior to different environments.

I think that it is intellectually dishonest and harmful to the cause of unity to disrespect atheists this way. I am not in the habit of criticizing the beliefs of others, no matter how ridiculous I find them to be. It would be nice if you did the same.