MIke85, my interpetation of scripture is just fine. No where in scripture does homosexuality get talked about in a positive manner. As far as Matthew 19, Jesus restates Genesis 2: 24 which defines marriage. God made man in his image and female from man. Each represents a unique image of God. When man and woman come together in marriage that is a complete representation of what He had in store in c...more

MIke85, my interpetation of scripture is just fine. No where in scripture does homosexuality get talked about in a positive manner. As far as Matthew 19, Jesus restates Genesis 2: 24 which defines marriage. God made man in his image and female from man. Each represents a unique image of God. When man and woman come together in marriage that is a complete representation of what He had in store in creation. To try and redefine that as anything else is misrepresenting creation and thus an abomination. The other point is that not seeing homosexuality is a sin one can turn from is denying the transforming and restoring power of Christ. That is denying God's grace.less

Very interesting interpetation of scripture Mike. Very wrong interpetation, though. Daniel Paul, you have a very good interpetation of the text. Don't forget that Jesus defined marriage by restating Genesis 2: 24 in Matthew 19. Enough said. Marriage is between a man and a woman.

This is, to me a scary article, because it shows the lack of understanding some churches in the body of Christ have. What I am saying is alot of churches forget to be Salt and Light. They put aside Matthew 5 as a way of living and live a very twisted way of world Mon-Sat and Church on Sunday. You canot be salt and light unless you walk the walk and talk the talk. How do you expect young adults liv...more

This is, to me a scary article, because it shows the lack of understanding some churches in the body of Christ have. What I am saying is alot of churches forget to be Salt and Light. They put aside Matthew 5 as a way of living and live a very twisted way of world Mon-Sat and Church on Sunday. You canot be salt and light unless you walk the walk and talk the talk. How do you expect young adults live a Jesus based world view unless the people who are the examples in their lives live that world view. If you want your children to read the bible, they need to see you read the bible. If you want them to have a prayer life, they need to see you in a prayer life. We do a great job at teaching the kids the vocabulary, but an awful job at what the words actually mean. You can be half in, in your sprituality, but it shows and it reflects the light is dim and the salt is flavorless. You gotta be all in for Jesus, because he went all in for you. The bible does say narrow is the way and that is a fact, but it is also a challenge to not cop out with that understanding, because we are told we are salt and light which means we are to be active. Starting in our own homes, church and communities to try and change these numbers.less

The Watch: your attempt at philosophy fell flat on its face, but try again (and please do so with a coherent sentence, thanks!) Ok....picking myself off the floor....and trying to be as coherent as possible.. First, we believe the word of God and it declares homosexuality as a sin. Second: The world we live in is a majority hedonistic world. Meaning,life is devoted to the pursuit of ple...more

The Watch: your attempt at philosophy fell flat on its face, but try again (and please do so with a coherent sentence, thanks!)

Ok....picking myself off the floor....and trying to be as coherent as possible..

First, we believe the word of God and it declares homosexuality as a sin.

Second: The world we live in is a majority hedonistic world. Meaning,life is devoted to the pursuit of pleasure and self-gratification. If you read Romans 1, you will find this:

"24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. "

The creature that is worshiped is more often our own ego and self-interest. God is replaced by the idol of our own self-gratification. That is rampant today and that being said, our world is a world of Moral relativism. Meaning, that anything goes, because life is ultimately without meaning. Thus, my comment about Nietzsce existentialism. His philosophy was that God is dead and moral facts don't figure in the 'best explanation' of experience, and so are not real constituents of the objective world. Moral values, in short, can be 'explained away. With this, you are justifying your homosexuality exactly as the world would have you do it...with moral justification based on self interest rather than a moral basis presented by God. Our God is a God that changes you, no matter who you are or what you have done. He frees you from the slavery of sin. The world teaches you, you are who you are and your born that way. God ask you to let him change you with grace because you have a choice.less

Mike, You said: "DP, the difference is alcoholism is a chemical dependency, sexual orientation is not. I did not choose to be gay (I do choose to have a relationship with my partner and be a well adjusted human being.)" If you did not choose to be gay, then there really was a choice, because if you didn't have a choice, you wouldn't have any reservations about not having ...more

Mike,

You said: "DP, the difference is alcoholism is a chemical dependency, sexual orientation is not. I did not choose to be gay (I do choose to have a relationship with my partner and be a well adjusted human being.)"

If you did not choose to be gay, then there really was a choice, because if you didn't have a choice, you wouldn't have any reservations about not having a say so in it. I tend to believe the American Psychological Association:

"Many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors."

If you talk with and alcoholic or drug addict, they will also claim not to have a choice in the matter, but if they follow the program of AA or Alanon they learn they do have a choice.They have to give up the denial and justifications they hide themselves in. With what the APA stated, then what is learned can be altered and changed. What is even more astonishing, is the APA's statement parallels the Bible's nature of man's sin in Roman 1. We exchange the truth for a lie and we worship the creature rather than the Creator. The complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors stem from our culture being a society of moral relativism. The world happily justifies sexual preference with Nietzsche existentialism and hedonism is the religion of the masses. The choice you said you did not have is what the world would have you believe.less

Mike22685: "Because its a sin" isn't a good reason to create a discriminatory law. This country is not solely Christian, so solely Christian values cannot be forced on everyone. We shall overcome." But it is perfectly OK to force the homosexual agenda upon everyone, when the coutry is not wholly homosexual??? Thats a little hypocritical, isn't it? I would wager if you ...more

Mike22685:
"Because its a sin" isn't a good reason to create a discriminatory law. This country is not solely Christian, so solely Christian values cannot be forced on everyone. We shall overcome."

But it is perfectly OK to force the homosexual agenda upon everyone, when the coutry is not wholly homosexual??? Thats a little hypocritical, isn't it? I would wager if you could survey the people who voted Prop 8 in, it wasn't all evangelicals. The same respect, if you surveyed the people who voted against it you would find some evangelicals. That is part of the problem I see with the homosexual agenda. Everything is cool as long as you agree with the agenda, but if you disagree with the agenda, you are labled a hater and discriminating against their rights, but what about the right of the Christian or for that fact, the Muslim or Jew who doesn't support the agenda because of their convictions and beliefs. Are they bigots? In my opinion, on the homosexual side of the fence, it is an all or nothing agenda. They push equality and compromise but if opposed the finger pointing starts and the law suits fly. Evangelicals compromise alot already in this area but for once in a long time our voice is heard.less

Mike, there never was a constitutional provision in the state of California for same-sex marriage. There was a domestic partnership legislation passed in 2003(AB 205), but it does not recognize same-sex marriage, just same sex couples could have the rights afforded a spuose under state law. In 2005 the California state legislature passed the Religious Freedom and Civil Marriage Protection Act whi...more

Mike, there never was a constitutional provision in the state of California for same-sex marriage. There was a domestic partnership legislation passed in 2003(AB 205), but it does not recognize same-sex marriage, just same sex couples could have the rights afforded a spuose under state law.
In 2005 the California state legislature passed the Religious Freedom and Civil Marriage Protection Act which would have recognized same-sex marriage in California. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed the Religious Freedom and Civil Marriage Protection Act. The Act marked the first time that a state legislature had approved a bill authorizing same-sex marriage without a court order.Schwarzenegger press secretary Margita Thompson said, “the governor believes the matter should be determined not by legislative action – which would be unconstitutional – but by court decision or another vote of the people of our state.” In 2007, Schwarzenegger again vetoed the Religious Freedom and Civil Marriage Protection Act
On June 4, 2008, the California Supreme Court denied a petition to stay its In re Marriage Cases order pending the upcoming vote on Proposition 8.As of June 17, 2008, marriages between individuals of the same sex were considered valid and recognized in the state of California. A UCLA study estimated that 18,000 same-sex couples married between then and early November, 2008.
In order to qualify for the ballot, Proposition 8 needed 694,354 valid petition signatures, equal to 8% of the total votes cast for governor in the November 2006 General Election. The initiative proponents submitted 1,120,801 signatures, and on June 2, 2008 it qualified for the November 4, 2008 election ballot through the random sample signature check. The rest is history. The people spoke again.less

I meant missing a few points..please forgive my grammer

Mike22685, Your miing a few points.The state supreme court can overturn a majority referendum if they deem the majority unconstitutional, as it did when it overturned proposition 22. 22 was a referendum that prevented California from recognizing same-sex marriages. Voters adopted the measure on March 7, 2000 with 61.4% approval and 38.6% against. The California Supreme court ruled the majority wa...more

Mike22685,
Your miing a few points.The state supreme court can overturn a majority referendum if they deem the majority unconstitutional, as it did when it overturned proposition 22. 22 was a referendum that prevented California from recognizing same-sex marriages. Voters adopted the measure on March 7, 2000 with 61.4% approval and 38.6% against. The California Supreme court ruled the majority was in violation of the equal protection clause of the California Constitution. Proposition 8 will ammend the California Constitution and overturn the State Supreme court's decision. This was not the first time the constitution of that state was used to take away rights...the rights were never there to start with.Now, with the passing of 8 there will be language protecting the defintion of marriage as between a man and woman.less

Stop the Madness, I agree whole-heartedly with your post and will add that as a soon-to-be minister I recognize the importance of the biblical teaching. I do believe there is a slow change occuring that is a turn toward traditional, biblical principle and away from an all-encompassing world view. With that, I don't even believe that it is a conservative/liberal argument of principle but a...more

Stop the Madness,

I agree whole-heartedly with your post and will add that as a soon-to-be minister I recognize the importance of the biblical teaching. I do believe there is a slow change occuring that is a turn toward traditional, biblical principle and away from an all-encompassing world view. With that, I don't even believe that it is a conservative/liberal argument of principle but an acceptance of a Jesus principle. His word is clear.less

Although, Paul explains homosexuality is a sin in Romans 1, Jesus defines marriage in Matthew 19: 4-6: "4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wif...more

Although, Paul explains homosexuality is a sin in Romans 1, Jesus defines marriage in Matthew 19: 4-6:

"4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

No where in that passage does he say man and male or female and female, but he does clearly state male and female.less

Ater reading that and knowing the history of the Episcopal church, all I can say is "par for the course." The apostacy continues.

James Reynolds "God gives up on no one, but he does leave them to thier own devices so that they can come to the lowest of lows so that they will repent and reconcile their relationship with Christ" Amen, Brother Reynolds...Hammer meet head of nail!

1 Corinthians 5 Immorality Defiles the Church 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as a...more

1 Corinthians 5
Immorality Defiles the Church
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”less

Believer, Thanks for your post.I have ben thinking about the Hebrew text during this discussion and glad you have brought it to light.

john14-6 What would Jesus do? That is the answer we need to seek. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I do know that to God, sin is sin. The answer to sin is Jesus. What would Jesus do? He changes hearts and lives every day and has been doing it for 2000 years. What if your son or daughter turned out to be gay? Would you stop loving them or turn them out to the street because of their ...more

john14-6

What would Jesus do? That is the answer we need to seek. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I do know that to God, sin is sin. The answer to sin is Jesus. What would Jesus do? He changes hearts and lives every day and has been doing it for 2000 years. What if your son or daughter turned out to be gay? Would you stop loving them or turn them out to the street because of their sin? Does God stop loving you because of a lie you told? I don't believe so on either case. I believe the love is still there with a prayer of hope. A hope of repentence and change. By seeking Christ in all things we become his example.
As far a someone subverting the church...the church should have and in most cases do have safegaurds protecting it's sanctity and the morality of it's clergy. Unfortunately, we do have churches compromising those things by trying to please everyone through politically correctness. The church does suffer. It also suffers when we quit seeking Christ for the answers and use interpetations as a judges gavil. We love the sinner and hate the sin. Sometimes we confuse the two or cannot distiguish between the two. What would Jesus do?less

john14-6 If you would read the whole context of my post you would see the meaning of accepting of people is not accepting them with out repentence of their sin. Jesus did meet, eat, talk and at times admonish them, but He did give them a chance to repent and experience grace. With that, I do STRONGLY believe that practicing homosexuals should not be clergy. I also STRONGLY believe that homosex...more

john14-6

If you would read the whole context of my post you would see the meaning of accepting of people is not accepting them with out repentence of their sin. Jesus did meet, eat, talk and at times admonish them, but He did give them a chance to repent and experience grace. With that, I do STRONGLY believe that practicing homosexuals should not be clergy. I also STRONGLY believe that homosexuals should be in church and have the same opportunity to repent and experience the saving grace of our Lord, because with that saving grace they are new creatures and would turn from sin and temptation. With that, I STRONGLY believe that a homosexual who has accepted Christ and has turned from their old life can be clergy.
I do STRONGLY believe that we water down the Gospel with political correctness by accepting things in the church that goes against biblical principles and promotes worldly ides but I also STRONGLY believe that we impede the Gospels message by taking biblical principles and using them to judge people instead of taking those principles and adding the Good News of Jesus's love and grace. We walk a fine line with doing that and I have been guilty of doing that also.less

I do not agree with a practicing Homosexual as a practicing clergy. The same goes as anyone involve in a sexual immoral sin. Biblically it is wrong and clergy should be held to the highest of standards. 1 Corinthians 6: "18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your b...more

I do not agree with a practicing Homosexual as a practicing clergy. The same goes as anyone involve in a sexual immoral sin. Biblically it is wrong and clergy should be held to the highest of standards.
1 Corinthians 6:
"18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s."

On the same token, Jesus was and is accepting of all people. He accepts all who in turn accept him and frees them from their sin. With that, he transforms them(reference Romans 6). Sin no longer has dominion, for we are no longer under the law but grace. With this knowledge, one can not truthfully operate as a minister or clergy of God if they are living still shackled in the chains of a sexual immorality. How can one lead others in the saving grace of Christ if they cannot resist temptation themselves? It skews the concept of redemption and salvation. The church is becoming more and more like the church of Corinth, patting themselves on the back and proclaiming, "look at how good of Christians we are by accepting this," instead of letting God transform them and work in their lives. We are impeding the Gospel by our political correctness.less

We all live in sin. Genisis 4:7: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Satan assualts us, every day, on many different levels. He attacks our intellect. He causes us to question our spirituality. He traps us with hedonism. He converts us with political...more

We all live in sin.

Genisis 4:7: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Satan assualts us, every day, on many different levels. He attacks our intellect. He causes us to question our spirituality. He traps us with hedonism. He converts us with political correctness. Paul tells us to put on the "Armor of God." The armor is the Word. The armor is prayer. The armor is worship. Those things combined give you shelter from the storm and strength in the face of peril. These things help us to master our sin before we are devoured by it. The first and upmost solution to sin, before you are able o wear the armor, is the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior. The repentance and forgiveness in that acceptance is the cure for the malady that we all suffer from.

Let us not judge but pray. Jesus is the judge. He also rights the wrongs. Let us pray and seek guidance we need in these troubling times.

The Watchless

rubinlueski: Part 2 With this being the case, then it might just be that God had to create the universe so that the fall would be included in His plan for the very purpose of demonstrating and manifesting His perfect character: Love! To demonstrate the very greatest part of His nature of love, He would have to die for someone else. This could not be done if there was no one to die f...more

rubinlueski: Part 2

With this being the case, then it might just be that God had to create the universe so that the fall would be included in His plan for the very purpose of demonstrating and manifesting His perfect character: Love! To demonstrate the very greatest part of His nature of love, He would have to die for someone else. This could not be done if there was no one to die for and no reason to die for them. There could be no reason to die if there were no need for an atonement. There would be no need for an atonement if there were no sin. If there was no fall, there would be no sin.
Therefore, perhaps it is possible that God created the universe with "free will" creatures in it who would fall into sin. Without this fall, ultimately no death would be necessary to atone for them and without that death, the greatest act of love could not be demonstrated. Also, this would mean that the truest and most perfect quality of love would not be fulfilled. Would this then mean that God would not be perfectly fulfilled without having given of Himself? I don't know. But I can't help wondering that for God to truly express His perfectly loving nature, He Himself had to be one who laid His life down for others. For this to happen, He allowed sin to exist in this world.
With this I do not believe God made a mistake nor do I believe He had unrealistic expectations.less