Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Que
I appreciate the thought and study you put into the subject, it was also very nice that you shared a part of that journey. God bless you all.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I read your quote to telling me what I and the LDS believe. Your words--"This is absolutely contrary to your belief that a just and holy God might bend the rules and allow the "ignorant" or "deceived" into glory. "-- I see a just and merciful God with a plan for those that have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know of no evangelical doctrine that allows for His mercy to be extend to those that would have accepted Christ had they had the opertunity in this life.

Again I am sorry, for the misunderstanding.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Que - wrong again -
"This is absolutely contrary to your belief that a just and holy God might bend the rules and allow the "ignorant" or "deceived" into glory. God is absolutely holy and as such can abide no sin. It is ONLY Christ's blood covering us that makes us "as white as snow" before Gods eyes. If you don't have Christ's blood, you can't enter in. And not just ANY "Christ", but the one, true Christ. Simple as that."

I don't believe nor is it LDS Doctrine what you just said. In fact the Book of Mormon teaches that one can't be saved in ignorance. So I don't know where you got that thought from. And like some one with only part of the truth (cause you only have part of the scriptures given to man by God) I can agree with alot of what you said, but again you haven't explained how the bible can say Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." and then say that we are judged by our works. if that isn't a contradiction then I don't know what is. You need further revelation and inspiration from God. see prophets.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I would also submit that it is the evangelical view of Grace that takes away from Christ's Atonement and Power. I do works to glorify Him and His Father, I keep the commandments to show my Love and Faith in Him. (I am not perfect in my faith or works and must for that repent daily). But to say that God doesn't save the individual that never knew Christ and never had the chance to, is to take away from His Love and mercy. To say “I am saved by Grace alone”, takes away from the Grace He gave provides me to do good works. To say “All you need to do is accept Christ” opens the door to being lazy and not doing works of righteousness(Christ taught “that we should let our good works be seen, that we may glorify the Father which is in Heaven-Matt 5:16)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their(not Adam’s) sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Que, Again I love your passion and zeal, I am amazed at the knowledge of the bible and the misunderstanding of God's great plan.

To use your example if I may: your grandmother is not truly saved(definitions could be argued of what "saved" means), but is damned for eternity, because she takes the sacrament, and prays to her rosary etc? I would submit that God's Grace is sufficient for ALL. I would like to ask if your grandmother sees that these observiences are signs of her faith (James 2:18) in the Lord Jesus and she does them by commandment (If you love Christ you will keep His commandments) is the Lords mercy enough that she can be saved(using evangelical definition of saved)?

I know that God is just and merciful and since He will be the end all judge I fear not my salvation. And some day hope to say as Paul "I have fought the good Fight (works), I have finished my course (my part in Gods plan), I have kept the faith, (what I believe=I know that Jesus is the Christ, the messiah, my Redeemer, and only through Him can eternal life be gained)

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Serious Wilderness, do you see the LDS faith and Faithful as a "Moral Menace"?

I can understand John Quincy Adams saying that in ignorance and with the lack of communication and understanding of that time, but I can't imagine any logically thinking human (much less a "christian") believing that in this day and age.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Que, I appreciate your prayers, I need all I can get. Let me ask you honestly.

You said "I can think of nothing sadder than a life wasted in the utmost devotion to a false religion." So you think that it is better for a non-believer or atheist then some one who disagrees with your interpretations of the bible?

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Prophet about your last comment I would love an explanation of what you mean. email me. Sorry I must cut it short.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Fellow believers in Christ I would love to continue this and I appreciate your sharing your point of view and interpetations of the scriptures it has been very enlightening. I must go for now but I leave a blessing of Love and good will to you. If you would like to continue any of these discussions please email me at =vince4jesus@gmail(dot)com. Thanks and God speed.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Okay if you are going to take it Literally, you conveniently left out "Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man..." is the bible contradicting it's self? or could it be that Jacob was figuratively wrestling before God? and after come out of this wrestle choose God and His ways and that is when God spoke to him (literally) Face to Face and changed his name to Israel?

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Again Prophet you assume that first John 5:7 is talking about one in body, person or being. Knowing this could go on for ever just as discussions like this can.

Can you see that 1 john 5:7 could be interpreted as one in Unity, Purpose, goal - like all are one in accord to bare record of the Son being Jesus Christ?

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Prophet, I agree, Jesus is the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word is God, but you assume that John is saying that Jesus Christ is God the Father. Man's understanding, if true than it would contradict other parts of the bible, so your assumption can't be truth, because the bible can't contradict itself, or are you saying the bible is errant?

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Que again apples and oranges, The spirit they feared is equal to a ghost or demon, the spirit that is housed in our bodies and that of Christ is what we are talking about. take as an example Christ shows himself to Mary but has not Assended to the Father and requests not to be touched (John 20:17)

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Moses spoke with the LORD face to face -exodus 33:11
Paul said Jesus sat down on the right hand of the majesty on High - Heb 1:3
Stephen saw Christ on the right hand of God - Acts 7:55-56
John the baptist heard the voice of the Father - Matt 3:16-17
Joseph Smith saw and spoke with God the Father and Jesus Christ - JSH, D&C 131, & 76

John 4:24 saying that God is spirit is true too, I can say you are spirit, cause you are made up of a body with flesh and blood, and you are spirit. You are to let the spirit control the body and worship and serve God.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Prophet that doesn't make any sense nor is that found anywhere in the bible or holy scriptures.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

You said it yourself
"Yes, God is one person - ONE TRUE GOD
Yes, Jesus is one person - God's ONLY begotten Son,
Yes, the Holy Ghost is one person"

Together they are the Godhead, separate beings, one in goal, unity and purpose.

Isn't it great to have the heavens opened to reveal the true and living God, that we don't need to rely on the understanding of man but can get the TRUTH from a living Prophet called of God in our day (just as in ancient days) to reveal and teach His truths
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

If I may interject:
Que you make a good point, BUT unlike the Godhead, your body can not survive with out you spirit. It is the spirit that is everlasting, obviously your body is going to die, at which point your spirit seperates it's self from the body. Not knowing your defination of the soul but again I believe the soul is made up of the body and spirit together.

God the Father is independant from God the Son and Jesus is independant from the Father (see previous bible quotes). No one comes to the Father except through the Son.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Not to be misunderstood, I believe that Jesus is our Saviour and Redeemer, and He was sent by God His Father to redeem mankind. How do you go against the bible when it clearly teaches the seperateness of the Godhead?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.(John 20:17)

If the Father and the Son were numerically one, where would Jesus go?

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.(Acts 2:33)

If Father and Son and Holy Ghost were numerically one, how could Jesus be at the right hand of God? How would He be exalted? And why would He need to have received a promise of the Holy Ghost? Let's look at Jesus' own words:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46)

If the Father is the Son, then how could he have forsaken himself?

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I wish I could stay longer and chat with you good people, but it is time to go. If any one would like to continue with intelligent emails, I will gladly and appropiately respond. God Speed to all.

vince4jesus@gmail.com

HEY bigondrums send me the sight you refered to Que also, I can't find it from past days either.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

VinceGrimm »

Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

At first glance all of Que's interpretations are man based. Que talks about torture to grammar, grammar, is man deciding what word should go where, and when one should pause, in writing and speaking. I found it interesting that he used a Greek word and translation to try to prove his point, but it seems to me that man established (to the best of his ability) that some Greek word would mean such and such in English. If one is going to claim such a strong belief in the “WORD of GOD” shouldn’t his/her premise for interpreting or understanding also be God’s word?

LDS believe all that God has revealed, (in other words=iow-God spoke to prophets/apostles and revealed the truth) LDS also believe all that He does not reveal (iow- God reveals His truth and gospel today, to prophets and by the Holy Ghost (john 14:26) and LDS believe that He (God) will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (iow- God will continue to reveal His truth and gospel in order to build up His kingdom on earth)