Or, perhaps, with a portion of Congress no longer under Obama's control, the people can feel that a drive toward socialism has been thwarted, and econimic worries over same have been abated, allowing for hesitant, slow growth in the market. Ah, but when those nasty unemployment numbers go down substantially, and not in the same slow, hesitant fashion ... Obama still has a difficult task before...more

Or, perhaps, with a portion of Congress no longer under Obama's control, the people can feel that a drive toward socialism has been thwarted, and econimic worries over same have been abated, allowing for hesitant, slow growth in the market. Ah, but when those nasty unemployment numbers go down substantially, and not in the same slow, hesitant fashion ...

Obama still has a difficult task before him. Pray for wisdom.less

As a point of curiosity, I wondered if there is a Christian parody of atheism somewhat similar to the "Story of Suzie" attack. There is an amusing piece done by Steve Martin called "Atheists Don't Have No Songs" on God Tube. So, I fear it is a two-way street. A more mature mature level is needed. But it was funny.

SadPanda, My math analogy is this: If you show no enthusiasm for the subject, you are bound to make erratic statements concerning the key issues. > stating that atheists are ignorant of theology is an outright falsehood. Generally speaking, when you are accusing another of stereotyping ... so what was studied? I'm aquainted with Hodges, Kuyper, Carl F. H. Henry, Pieper, and several others, n...more

SadPanda,
My math analogy is this: If you show no enthusiasm for the subject, you are bound to make erratic statements concerning the key issues.

> stating that atheists are ignorant of theology is an outright falsehood. Generally speaking, when you are accusing another of stereotyping ... so what was studied? I'm aquainted with Hodges, Kuyper, Carl F. H. Henry, Pieper, and several others, noting not so many differences, but a vast set of agreement on the basics and some disagreements on lesser issues. No atheist I've seen post here seems to understand this. But nothing I've read speaks of delusional types, but clear logical thinking.less

MD, Nope to your nope. Atheistic assessments of what is a Christian must rest on a steadier foundation than witty innuendo, spite and malice, and stereotyping. This line of argument follows along this analogy. Say I’m visited by a former student who is a successful entrepreneur who declares that math is entirely over-rated. I listen to him as he speaks of his management skills, I hear him a...more

MD, Nope to your nope. Atheistic assessments of what is a Christian must rest on a steadier foundation than witty innuendo, spite and malice, and stereotyping.
This line of argument follows along this analogy. Say I’m visited by a former student who is a successful entrepreneur who declares that math is entirely over-rated. I listen to him as he speaks of his management skills, I hear him assert that 12 + 3 = 17, 3 X 9 = 24; and several other math gaffs. I start to see that part of his business success is probably due to a smart accountant, or perhaps married into a wealthy family. His lack of math insights prevents him from making any other claim than that math is virtually useless.
Likewise, an atheist, who knows little of God, less of theology, is hardly the authority to criticize something of which he would be ignorant. Thus his/her arguments rise little above barbs and lampoons, rather insignificant in intellectual acumen.
This doesn’t stop a new atheist, at least from proving that the old atheists were far more tolerant.less

Freaky things are happening on my computer, cutting me off before I can get my entire post out. Here’s the complete post: Same old same old. Nothing fresh here. It’s now the idea of the “delusional” Christian. This is one more straw man that atheists create. However, it is equally delusional to assert that, on discounting the principle idea held by Christians – God – they are i...more

Freaky things are happening on my computer, cutting me off before I can get my entire post out. Here’s the complete post:

Same old same old. Nothing fresh here. It’s now the idea of the “delusional” Christian. This is one more straw man that atheists create. However, it is equally delusional to assert that, on discounting the principle idea held by Christians – God – they are in a level of competence that they have a complete understanding of the heart and mind of the Christian, knowing what “Suzie” ticks.

THAT’S DELUSIONAL!

The argument can’t carry. Too many sharp minds in the history of Christianity. Augustine. Aquinas. Barth. Bonhoeffer. Schaefer. Too many well-trained thinkers to discount as “delusional.” And this is a short list. I’m sure the other CP posters could multiply this list with more examples.

On closer examination, this claim of delusion doesn’t hold water.less

Same old same old. Nothing fresh. Now the strawman they wish to create is the "delusional" Christian. The whole crazed notion is that an atheist can discount the fundemental principle -- God -- then move on to totally assert they completely understand the heart and mind of the typical Christian. THAT'S DELUSIONAL!

Chris 505, This comes from the original Hebrew/Greek manuscripts, and the determined efforts by scholarship to determine the message contained, presented in understandable English. The problem is no so much getting the right word to fit the right sense to put it all plain as day in the words you comprehend. The real problem is when the message is personally brusque, an inconvenient truth, suc...more

Chris 505,

This comes from the original Hebrew/Greek manuscripts, and the determined efforts by scholarship to determine the message contained, presented in understandable English. The problem is no so much getting the right word to fit the right sense to put it all plain as day in the words you comprehend. The real problem is when the message is personally brusque, an inconvenient truth, such as dealing with the themes of sin, redemption, the human failure to grasp God, God's efforts to restore a rebellious man. It's not so much the message as the reception. Who can relate to all that God would present in His Scriptures?

Bother! I must be off to a concert. I hope you find resolution to these questions. You ask important ones. Till then have a good day in the Lordless

Resurrection story? .... Wrong word to set the stage. Anything but resurrection. Use reclamation, restoration, redemption, but not resurrection, Jesus Christ's balliwick. It's enough to say, Christ is risen! Ted's back.

Chris505, > And the multiplicity of "denominations" proves me right. No, this proves that man, not God, is in control. If man refuses to acknowledge God's Word and Will in the matter, of course there are many denominations, only because sola scriptura is violated and replaced by sola ratio. Man may as well guess what God teaches if they refuse to submit to the authority of the Word of God...more

Chris505,

> And the multiplicity of "denominations" proves me right.

No, this proves that man, not God, is in control. If man refuses to acknowledge God's Word and Will in the matter, of course there are many denominations, only because sola scriptura is violated and replaced by sola ratio. Man may as well guess what God teaches if they refuse to submit to the authority of the Word of God.less

Chris505, Sorry, what you claim is sola scriptura isn't. Sola Scriptura means that only Scriptures is a true guide to matters of God and Christian living. What you describe is more like human reason butting heads with God, then going into rationalisation mode. A true understanding of this sola allows God to be God, and if you don't measure up to that ... repent. Then trust Christ for forgiv...more

Chris505,
Sorry, what you claim is sola scriptura isn't. Sola Scriptura means that only Scriptures is a true guide to matters of God and Christian living. What you describe is more like human reason butting heads with God, then going into rationalisation mode.

A true understanding of this sola allows God to be God, and if you don't measure up to that ... repent. Then trust Christ for forgiveness. This is certain because the Bible discusses this matter quite plainly. Your idea of this sola makes the reader final arbiter and decision maker. True sola scriptura people bow and acknowledge God's wisdom.less

I don't believe that after 500 + posts, no one has noted the two weaknesses contained in the billboard itself. The first weakness is the ambiguity of the billboard due to the use of two pronouns without establishing their antecedents. This allows for two interpretations. The picture of five religious bodies are placed to the right of the message "WE KNOW THEY'RE ALL SCAMS." The picture is th...more

I don't believe that after 500 + posts, no one has noted the two weaknesses contained in the billboard itself.

The first weakness is the ambiguity of the billboard due to the use of two pronouns without establishing their antecedents. This allows for two interpretations. The picture of five religious bodies are placed to the right of the message "WE KNOW THEY'RE ALL SCAMS." The picture is the largest, most dominant feature of the billboard. What prevents one from assuming that these represent the subject of the meesage. Thus: WE (i,e, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bhuddists, Shintoists) KNOW THEY'RE (American Atheists, mentioned in smaller type-set, selected by process of elimination) ALL SCAMS. I know that this is not the original intent, unless the AA is pre-announcing a mass "Anthony Flew" experience at their up-coming meeting at the end of the month. But my point is a cursory glance at this message allows for this interpretation. I mean, the message is grammatically weak, allowing two interpretations. They have theirs, but I like mine.

2) The atheist argument is weakened by the use of a universal ALL. In the discipline of logic, universals, whether they are positive (All, every) or negative (none, never) are hard to prove, because one one item of evidence to the contrary destroys the premise. It is easy to find this evidence, whether negatively (there are churches in serious budgetary crunches, hardly indicative of being "scams") or positively (much social good done through religious organizations. Thus, by any method, the billboard is disproved.

All these posts supporting the scam claim reveal so much humbugery. I use this term because our class will soon be reading The Phentom Tollbooth, which features a character called the Humbug. Pompous in appearance, pretentious is words and mannerisms, with a propensity of being wrong all the time.less

Changing the Face of Christianity ... sounds like cosmetic surgery ... having good P.R. If the mission of the Church is to proclaim repentance and forgiveness, then this is a recipe for further hypocrisy. > “If you ever want that friendly church, then throw out the book,” Ah, to be friendy. This is like saying the best Christianity to do is to assume the personality of a puppy, to scrambl...more

Changing the Face of Christianity ... sounds like cosmetic surgery ... having good P.R. If the mission of the Church is to proclaim repentance and forgiveness, then this is a recipe for further hypocrisy.

> “If you ever want that friendly church, then throw out the book,” Ah, to be friendy. This is like saying the best Christianity to do is to assume the personality of a puppy, to scramble for that "belly-rub" to feel that it is appreciated. The Church has better things to do than to fawn and fetch for public approval.

Yeah, yeah, tell me about all the flack we can catch if we don't follow the culture ... Listen to Jesus' words on the matter: “Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt 5: 11. 12)

Personally, I'll follow the guidance of Christ rather than the cracked opinions of someone who has no understanding of the faith Christ came to promote.less

After such a busy day on this article, one must have a feeling that it was American Atheist Day at the CP. For all this talk of scam, I remember this line from Peter: 3knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from ...more

After such a busy day on this article, one must have a feeling that it was American Atheist Day at the CP. For all this talk of scam, I remember this line from Peter: 3knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” (2 Peter 3: 3,4)

Wierd, all the AA was doing was fulfilling Biblical prophecy. It's like vindicating the faith and offering evidence that Christianity can't be a scam.less

Nice article, but the eight points is not indicative of a boring church ... more a dead one!

2ndcmg, >it doesn't say that in it. > Look at the ad and point out where the word scam is in it. Click on the "View Full Image" attached to the photo. The message reads "You KNOW they are all SCAMS." viewed to the left of five buildings, each displaying a religious symbol. What's your point?

BTW, the last time I heard the word scam was in reference to a remark made in Cancun at a recent Conference on Climate Change. The fellow was talking on antroprogenic impacts on world climate. "Scam" must be the recent word du jour.

Phat, This broad-brush approach seems to be getting us nowhere. I understand your points about personal faith and televangelists. But, please, for the record, define "organized religion." Thanks for the thoughts.

I'm not a legal mind of anything close to that. But declaring an entity to be a "scam" expressed in a billboard that offers no proof ... If you blatantly accuse one of fraud, the heart and soul of scam, and this without proof, do we have grounds for slander/libel? Find a lawyer. American Atheists must be looking for Scopes 2.0.

Johnzon, > but hey if it works for you It's not a matter of what works, but what is true. In these post mod times, we have settled for "true for me" and "true for you" and have gone cold feet over "true for us." >but hey if it works for you Suicide "works" but it could be the cowards choice. Cheating "works" but there's that ethical thing to put up with. Simple put, "works" is n...more

Johnzon,

> but hey if it works for you

It's not a matter of what works, but what is true. In these post mod times, we have settled for "true for me" and "true for you" and have gone cold feet over "true for us."

>but hey if it works for you

Suicide "works" but it could be the cowards choice. Cheating "works" but there's that ethical thing to put up with.

Simple put, "works" is not enough. Coping is not enough if you deal will God, or refuse to deal with Him.

The Gospel is God's invitation to sinners. In the Parable of the Great Banquet, Jesus said of some, "They all began to make excuse." He continues the parable, not by pointing out how lame and bone-headed those excuses were. Just sent out more invites to unlikely people. All Christ offers is a message of repentance and forgiveness. The decision to "pass" is more than possible. It's done, in fact, done to death.less

Fancy that! I'm WELS.