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bigondrums »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:05 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

If works were not important, why would we be judged according to our works? Why would we be told faith without works is dead?
We are to follow the commandments of God. These are called works. We will be judged accordingly. We are not saved by our works, we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. However, this does not negate our responsibility to follow His commandments.
Even satan and his dominions believe in Christ. They are not saved. You can say you accept Christ and believe in him, and then murder 5 innocent people in a shooting rampage. Are you still saved? If so, and works don't matter at all, then why do we do anything good after we've accepted Christ as our Savior?

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bigondrums »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

All I can say is, we feel the same towards you.

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bigondrums »

Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:51 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

I missed a lot of posts it looks like, after I called it a day. Sorry about that.

Prophet, We believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. We believe that under the Father's instruction, all things that we know of were created. We are subject to Him. He is subject to the Father, as He showed us when He came in the flesh. I noticed there were a lot of scriptures thrown back and forth trying to prove both sides. I don't think either side is giong to convince the other they are wrong. And it doesn't look like either side is considering the other's point of view very well.
Where do you guys see this conversation going? Can it continue? Or should we agree to disagree and wish each other the best? It's up to you, I can do either.

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bigondrums »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Your argument makes no sense to me. John 17:3 proves that they are separate because Jesus prays to the Father. I don't see how you're making your argument that they are one and the same. The Son is subject to the Father.
Even your quote in Genesis proves they conversed with each other.

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bigondrums »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

That was Jehovah speaking to a set of people in Old Testament times when idol worship was a huge problem. Jehovah is Jesus Christ, who we are subject to. To us, He is our God.

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bigondrums »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Revelations is just that: a revelation. He was shown things from the past, and things that will happen in the future. I disagree with you that the war in heaven in which satan was cast out happened in the past. I know that Revelations is a difficult book to understand, but the evidence that satan is present now, along with his dominions, seems strong to me. In fact I don't know many protestants that take a stand on the war in heaven as far as when it occurred. Most preachers I've talked to believe that is how satan got to be on earth (in the past).

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bigondrums »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

What I am seeing is that we must not be using the same KJV. Are you missing the many, many scriptures that Christ refers to the Father? Or that they are manifested to prophets beside each other?
I believe that Jesus Christ was with the Father before the creation of the earth. I believe that Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament. I believe that Jehovah is Jesus Christ. When Jesus came to earth in the flesh He taught us about the Father as well as Himself. I believe we are subject to the divinity of Jesus Christ as He is the mediator between us and the Father. But just as He taught us, He is the Son. The Son is subject to the Father. And so are we. Does that clear up what I've been saying?

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bigondrums »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

John Chapter 1 is speaking of the Father and the Son and says they were together. I guess I'm just not seeing how you can misinterpret that one scripture and forget about all the others I brought up where they are clearly mentioned as seperate.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

bigondrums »

Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

You aren't listening. I never agreed that Jesus and God are the same entity. They are one in purpose, but different identities. Yes Jesus existed before the world was created. I'm not sure what you missed there in my explanation.

The war in heaven was before the world was created. By Lucifer's opposition to the Father, he became evil and was thrust out of heaven. Satan does not reside in heaven now, nor do his dominions. I never said that Satan could not speak to Jesus, I said Satan can't be in the presence of the Father, because he is full of sin and sin cannot reside with the Father.

Online4Him,
Sorry, I guess I mispoke. The man of perdition isn't Satan himself, but led by Satan. I was too wrapped up in my point that I typed that faster than I thought about it :)

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bigondrums »

Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Wow, in almost everything you said I saw my point made. Yes, the Word is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did exist before the earth was formed. We believe Jesus Christ created the earth under the instruction of the Father. He is our advocate with the Father. He is our median with the Father, which is why we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. He said "our" image because Christ was there with Him. The only difference is that Jesus had not come to earth and received a body yet. He existed as spirit until being born of Mary. He then taught us of the Father.

Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. We are told that in Revelations. Once Lucifer had rebuked the Father, he became evil. God cannot have evil near Him, which is precisely why the atonement is soooooooo important. If God were able to have evil in His presence, the sacrifice of our Savior would not have been necessary. Once Adam and Eve transgressed and evil was introduced to man, the atonement was necessary so we may all return to live with the Father. I'm not sure how you came to understand that there is evil in heaven, but that is a lie, born of Satan himself. There is no evil in heaven. Jesus will return to defeat Satan on earth. Satan does not dwell in heaven. Neither do his followers.

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bigondrums »

Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:22 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

There are no evil spirits in heaven to be bound. That makes no sense.

If God and Jesus were the same person, then why are there scriptures that mention them both, seperately? How did prophets see Jesus on the right hand of the Father? Why did Jesus go off alone to pray to the Father if it was really Him just talking to Himself? Why did the Father make it a point to let those present at Christ's baptism that He was pleased with His Son? Why wouldn't He just say "I'm pleased with myself"? Why would Jesus ask the Father why He had forsaken Him on the cross?
God and Jesus are one just as Christ said He and His apostles are one: in purpose.

Jesus referred to our bodies as temples to let us understand how sacred these bodies are. We should take care of them and not put harmful substances in them or mark them up with tatoos or a lot of piercings. We get these bodies back in the resurrection. He never said that there is no more use for THE temple. If that were so, He would have done more than just overthrow the moneychangers, He would have just destroyed the temple. He was upset that they had desecrated His temple. He never said there was no more need of it.

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

And one more statement about the scripture you quoted: if God and Jesus Christ are not 2 separate entities, then why would God and the Lamb be mentioned separately.

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

If you already have that power, then why do protestant preachers marry until death do you part? This is because they knew they did not have the power to bind in heaven.
As for temples, maybe you don't see the importance of them, but obviously those in biblical times (including the Savior) did.

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

After conversing with you, I can see why some leaders of the church have said that we do not believe in the same Jesus Christ.
As a convert in to the church from the Wesleyan Church (a protestant denomination), I think some would think I worshipped a different Christ than you then as well. It seems you believe that our Lord is finite and incapable of leading His sheep in the present day. You believe in some of the scriptures, but not all. It seems this stems from misinterpretations of them. You take certain scriptures to back up your beliefs, while ignoring others. I know that I worship the same Jesus Christ as I always had since I was a child, I just know much more about Him now.
I believe that Jesus Christ is preparing to return to the earth, to reign over it in person, and destroy satan and his cause. I believe in the restitution of all things, including the priesthood, the power to bind in heaven as well as earth, temples and temple ordinances, and the organizational structrure of prophets and apostles.

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

There are sins that the Lord will not forgive. Matt. 12: 31-32 says:
31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall cnot be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Does that mean the Lord contradicted Himself?

As for the Blood Atonement you bring up, I think everyone that has looked at this at all realizes that this came from the Old Testament way of dealing with certain sins. If you remember, people were stoned to death for adultery, etc.
One example is Genesis 9:6 ("Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."). Leaders spoke of this type of treatment, but never suggested that it be carried out. A lot of these sermons that were given by early church leaders are taken out of context to make things seem vile. If you would like to know a little bit about it feel free to go here.
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_Brigham_Young_Say_He_Would_Kill_an_Adulterous_Wife_with_a_Javelin.html

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The LDS church never said the gospel was taken from His children. The keys to act in the name of God were taken (which is the priesthood). We believe that the fulness of the Gospel was restored when the priesthood was restored to the earth. Without the priesthood (which is the power to act in the name of God) who has the authority to baptize or perform other ordinances? Does going to college give people the authority to perform ordinances in His name? When someone says they feel called of God to become a preacher, who gives him the authority to perform these ordinances and "save" people?
Do I believe that He left or had forsaken man? No. But He did prophesy that the heavens would roll up like a scroll and there would be a famine in the land of the words of God. This means that there would be a period of time that God would not directly speak with man. Did He contradict Himself? No. His influence was still upon us with the presence of the Holy Ghost.
God is a God of much order. You can see this in His creations. There is great detail in the most microscopic molecules. Do you honestly think that He would allow His gospel to be blown about by every wind of doctrine? That His church could be so divided on doctrines that He established?

Our church does not believe that the comforter was taken from the earth. I never claimed that. As for revelation being taken, didn't you just say that God could no longer speak to man? You said that God can't add to His revelations. I think you are dead wrong on that. God has the power to speak with us directly, and I believe that He has done so in these last days in preparation for the second coming.
I've never said that God lies. You misinterpret me, just as you have the scriptures.

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

The man of perdition is satan from what I understand. The temple was destroyed, so if you don't think this happened already, shouldn't you be building a temple so this can happen and Jesus can return?

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bigondrums »

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Q,
I have no problem with you quoting scripture, I just said that I didn't want to clutter this post with things that you can go offsite to read. As for painting you as an uncaring bigot, you hold the brush on that one. If the way you treat mormons on here is caring, I would hate to see how you handle children.
You are correct, God doesn't contradict Himself. There are prophecies that speak of the gospel being spread to the four corners of the earth. Never was there detail on how it would happen. However, who are the other sheep that Jesus left the apostles for? Other planets?
Where does it say that God would never again speak with man?

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bigondrums »

Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chill out wilderness. I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. I've read tons of books on the topic, from both sides, and what you're digging up just sounds like fiction.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

bigondrums »

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-great-apostasy

Of course you can click all around for other topics. That one was just the subject at hand at the time.