Gay Marriage Supporters Threaten to Strip Churches of Tax Exemption

bryan90new »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:40 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Oh gosh, why is there even an argument here.

Topic: Should churches have tax exempt status?

Caveat: Disregarding homosexuality's morality

Logic:
1. A tax exempt from the church can be seen as public paying tax to the church
2. People should not be paying tax unless its a public good (just like how pro-life citizens should not be paying tax for abortion if they don't believe it's a public good)
3. The logic follows that those who believe in same-sex marriage should not be paying tax to the political parties that are against same-sex marriage.
4. The church, during this campaign, has demonstrated that its a political party by donating and participating.
5. The public should not be paying tax to the church.

See simple logic...

Lutherans Open Debate on Sexuality Statement

bryan90new »

Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:20 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Gibbons,

Is there a chance that I have misinterpreted the bible? OF COURSE!

Which is why I always remind myself that whatever I believe in, I don't expect others to believe in, and I don't claim it to be the absolute truth. Through the wisdom and experience granted to me, I have interpreted it as such; others can have their own interpretation which I can't say for sure is wrong. As I live, as God pours more wisdom and experience into me, I revise my interpretation of the bible.

There is a chance that God has preserved the Bible and has done such that ever word in it today is literally His words.

But I think there is also a chance that God simply provided us with the Bible and wants us to treat it like any story book - to learn from the core values and not take its words literally. If Jesus preached in parables, God might intend the bible to be a parable itself.

Again, I do not have the authority to say which is right and which is wrong and I understand that there will always be division in which way to go. However, what I strongly believe in is that whichever way we choose to go, however many differences we have, lets try out best to live in harmony.

Many do tell me that "Christians do live in harmony, but we have to purge this world of sins!" I can't exactly say that that is entirely wrong as well. But I believe that if it were Jesus, he would simply inform the world of their sins, and then move on with his preachings instead of fueling fights, campaigns and dissension.

I am in an extremely difficult position, (take the same-sex marriage thing as an example), on one hand, I am telling the Christians that they should take the high road and be the first to stop the fight; on the other hand, I am telling the lgbt activists to take the high road and find other approaches for equity. In essence, all I wish for is that God's creation can indeed take the high road and live in harmony.

When we get slapped on the right cheek, not only should we not condemn the person, we offer our left cheek.

Lutherans Open Debate on Sexuality Statement

bryan90new »

Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

Hello!

I think what many of the people here have tried to say is that: "our perspective of the bible has indeed changed throughout history".

I believe this cannot be denied; the bible even has an example of this.

Before Jesus's time, many believers believed that one should not work during the Sabath from reading the Word of God. In a way, Jesus told them exactly what a lot of people here are saying: "Your interpretation is wrong; healing on the Sabbath is not a sin."

The problem is, I don't think anybody here can claim that they have the authority of Jesus and is able to provide a final and accurate interpretation of the bible.

All I suggest is that perhaps we should open up our minds and not be as stubborn as the pharisees, and perhaps ask ourselves: "have we misinterpreted the bible? how should we understand it?"

And which is why these denominations have come together for a discussion - perhaps they feel that the wisdom of God is better understood with the combined wisdom of more human beings than only themselves.

Obama Administration Makes Clear Its Commitment to Repeal DOMA

bryan90new »

Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

You know... I am just going to keep visiting Christian Post, and read post after post, and hope that one day there will be one, where discussion can happen civilly.

Seriously, if I can't have faith for Christians to respect each other, how can I have faith in the rest of humanity?

Instead of "this is hilarious. Big picture - eh? Don't kid yourself", why not "Garageguy, I beg to differ"

Instead of "rolln, you're so funny. I love how you know everything about everything", why not "rolln, I don't think you're right about what you said; I don't think you understand me, but then again, nobody understands everybody but the Lord."

Seriously.... what would Jesus do?

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Hey Viking,

"Third your theory of rights while common is not consistent with the theory of government of the United States and the Constitution which holds that fundamental rights are NOT simply social contracts but rather are INALIENABLE and inherent."

Yeah, I might be a little ignorant with regard to the entire concept of "rights". But I cannot help but ponder that the word "inalienable" seems a little too promising no? I mean the rights that we have are promised to us by our governments, or even (marginally) by international actors like UN. And I can't help but think that if the world were to be conquered by lets say a tyrant; will our rights still be respected; and will it still be "inalienable"? That's just my thought on it. But one of the biggest criticism that I know of myself is that I often speak about something without knowing it fully, hence, please don't be offended if I seemed to have committed any travesty with regards to "rights".

:D

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

"Then the pro-gay movement is surrendering? After all, they are forcing their beliefs on me and forcing my children to watch what the Bible calls sin."

Today, I thought, I'd talk a little about acceptance, rights and imposition of beliefs.

I have observed that when it comes to "rights", it is always a stand-still argument:

(Example)
A: I have the rights to do action X!
B: But by doing action X, you infringe my rights to do action Y!

As we can see, A should not be given the rights to do action X if it violates B's rights.

But what constitute "violates"? Does same sex marriage violate religious rights? So if I am a staunch vegetarian, can I say that meat should be banned for all because it violates my rights?

As you can see, "rights" is a very complicated thing, is it not? I rather prefer the more simple approach: "I am a person who doesn't like seeing homosexuals around, and since this is a democracy, I will vote against homosexuals." (period)

It is very important that we ask ourselves what constitutes "preference" and what constitutes "rights". Because honestly, I believe that there is no such thing as "rights" until one is given such by somebody else. You're not born with "rights", you can only be given "rights".

Hence, in a way, DP is right, we are all individuals trying to fight for a nation that is "preferable" to ourselves. Those who wish for same-sex marriage, will fight for same-sex marriage, and those opposing it, will fight against it.

However, I don't really like this system - this system we are in where different forces simply "fight" for what they prefer - it's very brutal... I would prefer much if integrative negotiations can be made...

I would prefer the proponents and opponents to come and sit on one round table and go "well, damn us all, God has put us here, what shall we do now to solve this issue? Perhaps domestic civil rights for all, and leaving marriage to the church?"

But then again, I've been told that I am too idealistic because not all human beings like to negotiate. Some human beings simply want the doom of the other side no matter what.. Hence.. if I could, I would like to enforce my beliefs on others - I would like to enforce my belief that we, as human beings, would be better off, if we fight less, and work together more.

What's the point of saying "I love my enemies" when you put ALL energy into reprimanding each other and ZERO energy into trying to build relationships?

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:01 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Gibbon:

"You discover there's a lot of people who are smarter than you."

Yeah, I have to remind myself everyday! :D It is one of my most common mistakes - pride.

But it is also because I believe that there is something to learn from everyone (and that there is a Christ in everyone), I try to understand them, and see the world from their perspective. And that is how I learn - through the Christ in everyone.

I have always believed that God's presence, even on earth - if we look closely - is always prevalent. Nobody can trump that, even Satan.

I know it might sound a little blasphemous, but I just find that I can learn a lot more from the world than I can from the bible.

One of the major problems I've had with God in the past was that I cannot accept that 1) Muslims will not enter the kingdom of Heaven because they have not "accepted" Christ. 2) In the end, according to revelations, the world will end in disaster. [The image of God that I attained from general Christian population.]

But then as I grew, God gave me more opportunity to learn from the world. And by stripping biases and prejudices, I see how Islam like many religions preached much of Christ's values. When Nabi Mohammed established Madina, he preached acceptance, and Muslims, Christians and Jews alike lived under one nation. Perhaps it is after a series of Crusades and Jihads, we lost track of this value.

And I have also come to believe that despite the prophecies of revelation, He will never give up on this world; just as long as we don't. The world is very important to me. The world contains life; and God gave us life; and no matter how short life is, I believe he expects us to appreciate it as much as we can. And I believe that as long as we don't give up, and that we continue to help this world, it will progress, and the prophecies averted.

I know that it is unlikely for everybody to be Christian. But we can certainly expect everybody to practice Christ's values - if we don't stop trying. And by doing so, perhaps Abraham will be able to find enough good men to convince God out of destroying it. :P

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Gibbons,

Just something that you might want to be cautious about in the future: generalization very often leads to mistakes. (If you didn't mean to generalize, then sorry for the misunderstanding)

(My experience is definitely not unique) The one serious time I attempted suicide; no one saved me. My plan was immaculate. It was supposed to work such that I die of electrocution in my sleep. I woke up the next morning, with all my devices dismantled, and my parents who were living with me at that time didn't know about it until I told them. And I don't remember waking up to dismantle the equipments. Until today. I kind of accepted that my subconscious mind woke me up despite having taken precautions (some sleeping pill). So yeah.. apparently there was a part of me that REALLY wanted to live.

Just trying to say that we won't know everybody's true story, so why guess and make too much assumptions and assertions from it? I guess this is why Jesus told us not to judge eh? Cause we won't know the entire story behind a person's actions.

And Paul that is a very kind offer. =D Such offers, during certain times, might even save lives. But I do have a very very loving family. I despised the idea of God in the past because I thought he was discriminatory and I was (am!) pretty stubborn and rebellious to begin with.

Danpat1(with regard to your son), I am sure it will. =D From reading your post, I am somehow reminded of my family... When I was younger, I was quite rebellious and ungrateful as well. And I bet my mom was making prayers everyday as well like most parents. I hope from how I've turned out, she'd have more of a peace of mind.

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

BigMark,

I would like to foremost apologize, because you might very well be disappointed with my answer. But here goes:

I am 19 this year, and I've attempted suicide in the past for a couple of times - 2 of which were pretty serious. Heaven had never been too much of an appeal for me.

My mom is a Christian, she wanted me to be a Christian, so she taught me about Christianity. And since young, though I have accepted the existence of God, I despised him.

I remember when I took my life I said (along the lines): "God, you maybe be all powerful, but there is one thing you will never have, my soul!" I never liked the idea of Christianity, I saw it another way to discriminate and segregate. The catholic rituals seemed materialistic to me, and the entire "you are sinning!" sounded to me as an enforcement of personal power.

Twice, I tried to take away my life; twice I failed. [Almost miraculous; but I wouldn't be on it]. God (or my own mind) told me that: "You know, it's fine... you don't need to like me, just live."

And I did, and the more I lived, the more I found it so hard to be happy. And that's when He taught me how.

When I read the words "eternal life" in the Bible, I don't see it as "heaven" or "life after death". These things don't mean anything to me. I see it as my journey on earth - for everybody's journey on earth will remain on earth eternally, the fact that we've been here can't be removed. And that's when I realized how the many things my mom used to read to me off the bible, were really the values that helped me live a happy life. And to me, that is the Kingdom of God.

So, to answer your question more directly: yes I do believe that there are many ways to be saved. There are many ways to live life happily - but I believe that it would almost be impossible to live life happily if you reject all of the values of Christ - humility, compassion and gratitude.

"It is only through me, you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven" (somewhere along the lines) :D

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Gibbon,

It's not that I refuse to seek the bible, it is that to you, the bible is the main source of Christianity, to me, the world (God's creation) is. To me, God's work through the world trumps the bible.

I will not argue which way is the best... To me, as long as we find peace within ourselves, that's the most important thing. :D

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Gibson,

I am a person who believes in diversity and also believes in a God who created all kinds of diversity.

From my perspective, there are NO TWO GROUPS.

Different people have a different idea of what God is, I am not to judge who has it right, and who has is wrong. I am in no position to tell others that the God they believe in is wrong, is fictional, is their own creation, is their own figment of imagination. If I ever do, then I have sinned to the God I believe in.

Believer,

"bryan, how does one's image of God allow them to disobey God's truths that are clearly taught in His Word? "

It is not that the God that I believe in allow me to disobey his truths, it is just that we have a different idea of what God's truths are.

I believe in a God who wants me to be happy - and through years of struggle, He has shown me that certain values would help me attain sustainable happiness - respect, patience, gratitude, etc. To be able to respect someone's opinion and not retaliate in anger. To be able to be grateful and not dwell in jealousy.

I think that Humans, or to say the least, me myself, have the tendency to view things from our narrow perspective. Hence I also have the tendency to think that I am right, and others wrong. But God has given me the bible to show me stories. To show me how sometimes, you might think you're so sure that others are wrong, but it is not true (the Pharasise). To show me how sometimes society puts too much on tradition and norms but forgets about humanity itself (Jesus healing on Sabbath).

The Bible is the word of God through his creations. It is infallible because testimonies can never be false. But one major source of the word of God (I believe) is from the people around us. They too are God's creations, and there will always be something to learn from every individual.

And that is the purpose I came to this site in the first place. To see if my human prejudice will get the best of me; to see if I can converse civilly with people whom differ from me in beliefs, instead of shouting with accusations and retaliation with anger.

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Gibbons,

Many Christians believe that ALL who have a different image of God do so because they want it to be easier for them to sin.

Trust me Gibbons, if I would want to sin freely, I would not believe in a God in the first place.

As for myself, my image of a God is different from yours because of the experiences God has given me in life.

The point I would like to make is that sure you can faith that the God you believe in is the true God, but quickly assuming that any beliefs that are different from yours is false might be too reckless. Don't forget that the Pharasies too was very certain that the God they believed in was right and that Jesus was the Devil.

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I am very pleased with the responses! :D

It was all done very civilly, composed and nice! :D

Well, it appears that we will then agree to disagree on God's conviction on certain issues like homosexuality and gender roles.

But the God I believe in values diversity, and cares for all. So I will be more than happy to agree to disagree. :D

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Gibbons wrote:

Is this part inside quotations marks "we should love one another irrespective of WHAT THEY DO" in scripture?

It is referred to in Matthew 5 43:48 and in Luke too.

It stresses that loving someone who loves you is less than loving someone who doesn't love you.

From these teachings, we can tell that God is all-loving, to believers and non-believers; which we all would agree.

Then I go on by saying that the image of a God who loves us all (very dearly) but pays so much attention to petty things like gender, race, and sexuality does not make sense.

The creator of Love will obviously practice the most noble form of love. (if not then we should not worship Him) And on the corrupted earth itself, we see boundless love. Example: Parents who care so much for their children, that they are willing to sacrifice all just to see them happy. And it doesn't matter whether they are boys/girls, homosexuals/heterosexuals, rebellious/pious, just as long as they are happy.

If my parents can practice this kind of love, probably God does as well.

The image of a racist God (killing egyptians), sexist God (females are not supposed to lead), and a homophobic God (men shall not lie with men), if you notice ALL stem from the flaws of HUMANS...The Isreali want their God to punish their enemies, the male-dominated society wants their God to favour them and so on. If you look at the general picture of Jesus, he is not racist (talking to Samaritans), not sexist (respecting females) and not homophobic (not condemning eunuchs).

The image of the Christian God has changed from time to time; no historian would disagree with me. And it's all because of HUMANS!

Maine Gay Marriage Supporters, Opponents Agree to Civil Campaigns

bryan90new »

Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

You know sometimes I don't understand....

If God is so easily offended by sin, if he hates sin so much, then all those that he has said on how "we should love one another irrespective of WHAT THEY DO" is very much hypocritical...

To me it's kind of ridiculous to have such an image of God.. God is not superficial.. he hardly cares about race and gender.. It is US HUMANS who have made him such because WE ARE SUPERFICIAL....

House Subcommittee OKs Benefits for Same-Sex Partners

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

After so many months of discussion with the same people, haven't we learnt that neither sides will change their stand?

It is unlikely for anyone here to throw away beliefs which they have held so tight over trivial conversations in Christian Post...

Can we not agree to disagree? At least on Christian Post...

There are so many beliefs, so many religions out there that perfect synchronicity is almost impossible. Even if during the day we fight for our rights in our respective regions, can Christian Post not be a place where we show that despite differences, we can come together, discuss things civilly and not bear such antagonism?

Can we perform just one miracle on Christian Post where two sides stop strangling each other.. I know it can sometimes be fun.. but look what fools we make of ourselves in front of the values of Jesus Christ..

House Subcommittee OKs Benefits for Same-Sex Partners

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Sigh,

Sometimes upon seeing all this feud, I can't help but wonder what would Jesus say.

I am always inspired by the stories where Jesus never payed much attention to traditions like the Sabbath - constantly performing miracles which went against the tradition. And also his little regard for the lengthy and majestic prayers in the synagogues.

This led me to believe that rituals are never as important as the substance itself. Hence I always sigh when I see people fighting over trivial things like the term "marriage"; it is but a term.

What use granting me equal rights to "marriage" when many still discriminate against homosexuals anyway.

What use is preserving the sanctity of the "term of marriage" when the true sanctity of marriage lies between the relationship of a couple and god and nobody else?

Officials: 6 Pakistani Christians Killed by Muslim Extremists

bryan90new »

Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:48 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

I do believe that the main part of Christianity serves as a religion of peace.

I urge many Christians and other religions to see that Islam too serves as a religion of peace. Lets not be poisoned by the prejudice which brought forth many religious conflicts.

House Subcommittee OKs Benefits for Same-Sex Partners

bryan90new »

Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:42 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Mike,

I don't exactly understand your question, but I presume it has got to do with the "second class status" of equal rights but not equal in term issue.

I do admit that equal rights partnership but not marriage is a method of exclusion.

BUT I believe even stronger in many many things. I believe that "it is not how powerful the term is, it is how much power you give the term". Marriage is but a term; the sanctity of my relationship with my partner needs not a specific "label" from the public; call it whatever you like; it is what it is to us.

And being an active volunteer in the LGBT community, I also believe that forcefully attaining marriage equality isn't effective in fighting oppression. If we were to spend as much resources and time in more needed areas like educating schools on sexual diversity, helping those who have religion-sexuality conflicts; these, to me, would help the community so much more.

And personally I have never liked zero-sum games. Humans should be able to try work out solutions instead of fighting all the time. If all we always resort to anger, violence, and hatred all the time, what makes us different from those individuals whom Christ reprimanded?

House Subcommittee OKs Benefits for Same-Sex Partners

bryan90new »

Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:14 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Eh.. And I thought all sides would like this.. If you provide more CIVIL benefits to same-sex couples, then same-sex couples would less likely want some exclusive title called "MARRIAGE".

That way, same-sex couples get their CIVIL RIGHTS, and the religious community gets their SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE.

No?

Can we please strive to fight more for common grounds instead of getting at each others' necks everyday... Even I, as a human being am getting sick of it; I wonder what Jesus would think.