The more I read these threads, the more it seems that the core of the argument against gay rights is that we'd then have to face the horror of having to treat gay people as humans deserving dignity and love just as any of God's children deserve. That's pretty sad.

>The voice of true oppression. Oh, so now I'm the voice of true oppression. You've gone off the rails, sir. I don't agree with the decision of a gay couple to file a suit against the photographer in AZ, but think a doctor signs up to practice medicine, to everyone who needs that attention. So you have 2 examples compared to millions of gays without rights. Not very powerful odds in your f...more

>The voice of true oppression.

Oh, so now I'm the voice of true oppression. You've gone off the rails, sir.

I don't agree with the decision of a gay couple to file a suit against the photographer in AZ, but think a doctor signs up to practice medicine, to everyone who needs that attention.

So you have 2 examples compared to millions of gays without rights. Not very powerful odds in your favor I'm afraid.less

>It is the pro-gay movement that is oppressing Christianity.... That is just ridiculously silly. When, exactly, did the pro-gay movement stop you from practicing Christianity? Being a Christian and freedom of religion doesn't mean folks have to agree with us. Gays having rights wouldn't stop anyone from being able to be a Christian.

>It's not the American way. Equality isn't the American way? Wow. Now I've really heard everything. Come on! It's the first line of the Declaration of Independence for crying out loud!

>You are not separate in our society. You have the same freedoms and rights as I do. Of course I'm not. I'm straight and married to a man. My friends, however, are not treated equally under the law. That much is patently clear. >I view it the same way that I view drinking alcohol. You are welcome to indulge all you want as long as my children don't have to watch something the Bible is cle...more

>You are not separate in our society. You have the same freedoms and rights as I do.

Of course I'm not. I'm straight and married to a man.

My friends, however, are not treated equally under the law. That much is patently clear.

>I view it the same way that I view drinking alcohol. You are welcome to indulge all you want as long as my children don't have to watch something the Bible is clear about to anyone who has a greek clue.

Alchohol is legal to drink and there are no restrictions on your children seeing someone drink it. Your children also will see gay people in this world. They exist and live their lives out in the open and there's really nothing you can do to make them go away. Trying to keep them from being treated equally under the law won't make them go away either, you know.

I also believe it is just a matter of time before gay people are treated equally, legally anyway, under the law. It is just the American way.less

>cindy, if your neighbors consider themselves married then what's the issue? If the issue is the legal rights and benefits that married heterosexual couples receive and they don't, then that can be remedied with stronger domestic partnership laws that will ensure they receive them!! Domestic partnerships don't offer all of the rights. Marriage does, particularly at the federal level. And I'm...more

>cindy, if your neighbors consider themselves married then what's the issue? If the issue is the legal rights and benefits that married heterosexual couples receive and they don't, then that can be remedied with stronger domestic partnership laws that will ensure they receive them!!

Domestic partnerships don't offer all of the rights. Marriage does, particularly at the federal level.

And I'm a firm believer in equality. Separate is inherently unequal. I don't see any reason why if my church will marry them, why civil law can't also grant them the same.less

>You say you are entitled to marriage. You are not. No one is. Marriage is not a legal right. It is a legal privilege. Got to tell you, DP. You seem like a nice man, but that's a pretty awful statement that homosexuals aren't worthy of the legal privilege. It's pretty darn creepy. I can give people much leeway to disagree from a religious standpoint, but to disagree on a purely secular level wi...more

>You say you are entitled to marriage. You are not. No one is. Marriage is not a legal right. It is a legal privilege.

Got to tell you, DP. You seem like a nice man, but that's a pretty awful statement that homosexuals aren't worthy of the legal privilege. It's pretty darn creepy. I can give people much leeway to disagree from a religious standpoint, but to disagree on a purely secular level with civil law is just plain discrimination. Outright discrimination.

My lesbian neighbors....married 35 years yet still unable to gain legal recognition are as worthy of those civil legal protections as any straight couple. Period. Heck, they're more worthy than straight people who get drunk, get married in Las Vegas and then divorce the next morning.

The idea that Christians spend so much time, money and energy to fight against those lovely women, yet none to create legal restrictions on heterosexuals who devalue marriage every day, is pretty hypocritical. In some instances, it just feels mean-spirited.less

>Cindy 444: it is a shame that you cannot stand on the Word of God for your position, only your experience, but I want you to understand something - I do not hate homosexuals. Oh, but I do stand on the Word of God with my position as does my entire church and in fact my denomination, the ECLA. I think it's important to recognize that while we would all love there to be only one answer to al...more

>Cindy 444: it is a shame that you cannot stand on the Word of God for your position, only your experience, but I want you to understand something - I do not hate homosexuals.

Oh, but I do stand on the Word of God with my position as does my entire church and in fact my denomination, the ECLA.

I think it's important to recognize that while we would all love there to be only one answer to all religious questions...that is simply not the reality. If that were true, there wouldn't be so many different branches of Christianity in America. It is one of the things I love most about America....freedom of religion is one of the things that makes this country great. It honors the one of the core components of Luther's Reformation...a direct relationship with God.less

>am not judging them. I respectfully, and strongly, disagree. You are quite clearly judging them. Again. I am comfortable with where my church and I are on this issue. I'll leave you to yours. Blessings, Cindy

>That new creation should desire God over self. It means opposing the pull of the flesh for the joy of the Spirit. So as a Christian, I should refuse the pull of the flesh with my husband of 17 years? Homosexuality is not just a sexual relationship anymore than my marriage is one of pure sex. The idea that gay people do not love and commit and build a spiritual tie with one another but only ha...more

>That new creation should desire God over self. It means opposing the pull of the flesh for the joy of the Spirit.

So as a Christian, I should refuse the pull of the flesh with my husband of 17 years? Homosexuality is not just a sexual relationship anymore than my marriage is one of pure sex. The idea that gay people do not love and commit and build a spiritual tie with one another but only have a relationship about sex is rather silly if one thinks about it.

>>Unrepentant "Homosexual" (and non-homosexual) Christians who are embracing the flesh, even though they may be lovely persons on the outside but it is the difference between the cover and the pages within the book.

With all due respect, I have known my lesbian neighbors since I was a child. They have been with one another longer than my own parents....35 years now. They are as beautiful inside as they are out. But even with that, I also know that only God knows their hearts. The idea that you know their hearts is beyond ridiculous, it's the height of arrogance. It is not your job to judge that. It belongs to God. It is freeing to let go of the idea that we hold the power to judge everyone else's sin. Give it to God.

It is clear that I am a different Christian than most here, but I do know I am not alone. There are many of us that love God and love all of God's creatures....homosexuals included. My congregation is such. I have been blessed in knowing and loving some gay people. I feel comfortable with how that will be received when I reach the pearly gates.less

>Minorities cannot use use "rights" to force us to accept sin. Every day I wake up and accept that I am a sinner. Every day I pray and thank God for his grace. In honestly accepting accepting my own sin, I thank God for opening my heart to love all of my neighbors as imperfect sinners like me, as humans created in God's image, worthy of the same level and respect and dignity that I wish to rece...more

>Minorities cannot use use "rights" to force us to accept sin.

Every day I wake up and accept that I am a sinner. Every day I pray and thank God for his grace. In honestly accepting accepting my own sin, I thank God for opening my heart to love all of my neighbors as imperfect sinners like me, as humans created in God's image, worthy of the same level and respect and dignity that I wish to receive myself. That includes homosexuals, or the 70% of straight men who cheat on their wives, or the alchoholic, the glutton, the 50% who've divorced, etc.

I'm curious to my fellow Christians here....do you know any gay or lesbian people? Truly. I know some loving, Christian homosexuals and I value their friendship, their fellowship and the beauty of them as fellow humans created by God and as worthy of God's love and grace as I.less

>The arguement of rights being tied to marriage has no merit. Did you know that there are about 1400 federal benefits tied to marriage. As a woman happily married to my husband for 17 years (ok...in July it'll be 17 years), I wouldn't want to give up any of them. Would you like to give them up yourself, DP, or live without them and have to work through and pay attorneys to make pay for all of t...more

>The arguement of rights being tied to marriage has no merit.

Did you know that there are about 1400 federal benefits tied to marriage. As a woman happily married to my husband for 17 years (ok...in July it'll be 17 years), I wouldn't want to give up any of them. Would you like to give them up yourself, DP, or live without them and have to work through and pay attorneys to make pay for all of those benefits?less

>Second, This has nothing to do with children given that this and other laws like it are trying to force people to accept something that you know they cannot. Did you know 31% of homosexual couples who consider themselves married, even if no legal recognition is offered, are raising children, with 43% of straight couples raising children? Why do all of the children of homosexual couples deserve...more

>Second, This has nothing to do with children given that this and other laws like it are trying to force people to accept something that you know they cannot.

Did you know 31% of homosexual couples who consider themselves married, even if no legal recognition is offered, are raising children, with 43% of straight couples raising children? Why do all of the children of homosexual couples deserve less protection?

I also wonder why Christians always seem to assume homosexuals are seeking our approval. Do you really imagine they'd not be gay if we didn't grant them our blessing? Are we so arrogant to think that homosexuals can't live there lives without us saying they're ok. It seems they're here whether we approve or not. Our approval is totally unnecessary to their lives, as far as I can see. Their need for rights and benefits to protect their own families, on the other hand, seems much more important to them.less

>YOU said it and pushed the blame on your god. Reminds me of a quote I heard once. "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." I can't for the life of me remember who said it or where I heard it. Apologies for posting a quote without attribution.

>I thought that you read the Bible; however, the more you comment, and believe that Leviticus is the only book that speak out against homosexuality, I realize that you have not read the entire Bible. How sad you are with your passive aggressiveness. Childish, really. None of those texts you provided used the term "abomination" as you did in your original argument. If you'd like to continue t...more

>I thought that you read the Bible; however, the more you comment, and believe that Leviticus is the only book that speak out against homosexuality, I realize that you have not read the entire Bible.

How sad you are with your passive aggressiveness. Childish, really.

None of those texts you provided used the term "abomination" as you did in your original argument. If you'd like to continue to pretend that you do not use Leviticus and the Old Testament as a basis for your reasoning, perhaps you should work to remove that term from your arguments against homosexuals. I know it's a strong word that makes folks feel good to toss it out there, but it is not a staple of the New Testament.less

>If you can answer those two questions correctly, then I do not understand why you would ask a question like that, which lets me know that you were only copying and pasting scriptures, and you do not read the Bible in its context or understand it. I'd actually be able to ask/say the same to you, dear, based on the language you used. When you reference Levitical law with the term abomination, I...more

>If you can answer those two questions correctly, then I do not understand why you would ask a question like that, which lets me know that you were only copying and pasting scriptures, and you do not read the Bible in its context or understand it.

I'd actually be able to ask/say the same to you, dear, based on the language you used. When you reference Levitical law with the term abomination, I can only understand that you believe those are to be followed to the letter. Now it seems you want a different answer to that particular text when you're questioned on your use of such a term in your arguments.

But I see this conversation is useless. You believe that you and only you understand the true Word. I believe that my church has a better answer than you do. I also understand that debates on the actual interpretation of texts has raged, changed and moved over centuries. I can only be content with the powerful relationship with God that I have and know how he speaks in my heart. He brings me love and I am joyful of that love, enough to spread it even to those different than me. May He bless you with a love powerful enough to see your neighbor as His creation as you do yourself. I'm sorry to say I just do not see that in you. Perhaps if we were more than just words on a screen I could see a more open heart.less

>Therefore, if Yahweh's Holy Word demonstrates that same-sex marriages are an abomination in Yahweh's eyes, then one should not make their opinions their god and disobey Yahweh. So then, it naturally follows that you believe when a man lays with a man, he should surely be put to death, yes? Will you vote for that and be happy when other do as well?

>but it also says that you should hold God's commandments which it doesn't sound like you are doing if you accept homosexuality as normal... Matthew 22:35-40 most certainly does not say that. There are two, the highest two commandments presented in Matthew. Can you honestly say you are following those two?

>The scriptures that you provide Cindy444, clearly states that we are to love Yahweh first, and then, our neighbor second--they did not state to love Yahweh and your neighbor the same. Exactly. You are to love your neighbor as yourself. I think anyone that claims they are loving their homosexual neighbor as themselves while calling them deviants and actively working to make sure they remain sec...more

>The scriptures that you provide Cindy444, clearly states that we are to love Yahweh first, and then, our neighbor second--they did not state to love Yahweh and your neighbor the same.

Exactly. You are to love your neighbor as yourself. I think anyone that claims they are loving their homosexual neighbor as themselves while calling them deviants and actively working to make sure they remain second class citizens is very clearly not living up to the 2nd highest commandment. They would never do that to themselves, but have no problem doing it to someone else. This is why I find it a shame and an arrogant, twisted view of Christian love.less

As I'm sure folks will have guessed, I'm saddened for the loving homosexual couples in Maine who are denied the same rights as other Americans. As a Christian, I find the use of religion to deny others rights to be a real shame and a dishonor to the spirit and love of Jesus. 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your hear...more

As I'm sure folks will have guessed, I'm saddened for the loving homosexual couples in Maine who are denied the same rights as other Americans. As a Christian, I find the use of religion to deny others rights to be a real shame and a dishonor to the spirit and love of Jesus.

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:35-40less