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Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009
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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
dbrydges's Comments
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"Similarly, just as a person who may have a predisposition to alcoholism, stealing, sexual attraction to prepubescent girls, or whatever long before they ever committed the act is different and separate from the act itself."
Each act you listed has a victim, a real person who endures a measurable negative consequence of the action. Homosexuality is not the same. You do realize that heterosexual couples can also engage in "unnatural" sex. Should we legislate against that? Should we put a camera in peoples homes to ensure this does not happen? Homosexual couples also might not engage in any sex, just as some seniors who marry do not engage in sex. I actually know homosexuals who have not engaged in certain sexual activities. They are still homosexuals, some of them have partners, and at least one of those couples is married. Now given that they are not violating "natural law" as you call it, why should they not be married. Because you don't like it? Of course I have no problem with consenting adults engaging in sex, society has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.
"the difference is whether we legislate morality that can be determined through natural law."
Humanity by our very nature violate "natural law" all of the time. We alter our environment to suit our needs, we use science to be able to things we can not naturally do, it is not immoral, it is a reality of the human condition.
"You know good and well that is not what john14-6 is saying."
Actually I think that's exactly what he is saying. He says, "Society has a right to set boundaries on any behavior" Of course he then complains when he does not agree with the boundaries that society sets, see his monologue against the sexual revolution as an example, and I'm sure would like nothing more than to bend society towards his notion of morality, as I'm sure so would you. Society is not immutable and it may be that one day a majority of American society will support the marriage of same-sex couples, but both you and him would still oppose same-sex marriages and would still probably support legislated bans. We in Canada are already at that point where a majority of Canadians do not oppose same-sex marriages, and those with a religious agenda are still trying to enforce their notions of morality on the rest of us. It's very much like the Taleban but without the power to do anything about it. -
irenaeus, the sex act is separate from sexuality, it has to do with sexual attraction. I was a heterosexual long before I was sexually active. If you find homosexual sex unappealing, then don't have any. Do you wish to prevent other sovereign people from exercising their free will and self determination to engage in "sin" that you find offensive. Do you try to prevent Muslims from worshiping Allah? Do you think we should legislate against worshiping what you consider false idols? Should we pass constitutional amendments to ban all faiths but Christianity or strip them of their tax free status as religious institutions? And if the answer is no, then why do you consider homosexuality a worse sin than worshiping a false idol, or denying the holy spirit?
This is not a flame, I just don't understand the rational, it seems somewhat hypocritical to rail so firmly against government recognition of one "sin" while simply accepting that the government protects many others. I see it as the is the easiest battle in the war for an American theocracy. -
John, understand that I do not think that homosexuality is a choice. I certainly don't feel I had a choice to be a heterosexual, I just am. So when you call homosexuality aberrant and claim it is a destructive force in society (without a shred of evidence I might add), you are condemning people for who they are. I consider that hateful. When did you decide to become a heterosexual? Myself, I never decided to be sexually attracted to women, I was simply born that way.
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"That’s why I wondered whether you would consider wife swapping, incestuous relationships, polygamist relationships, orgies, etc (provided they were done under the advocacy of loving one another) as morally licit. After all, these are consensual examples."
I have no moral issues with any of these with the exception of incest, but that's probably not something I can properly rationalize, it's probably just societally indoctrinated. The danger of producing damaged offspring is certainly a consideration that adds some weight. So yeah pretty much if all parties are consenting adults I have no issues with these (incest is still taboo in my mind though) And I assume you think all of them immoral because you've been told it is. I prefer to think rather than follow blindly. To each his/her own - that's what freedom is about.
Note: flagged my own to fix a typo. -
"Hardly an orthodox Christian view."
Most definitely not orthodox, orthodox Christianity has a pretty checkered past. I don't put much stock in it.
"It’s rather easy to live more Christ-like if your positions are so liberal that all the moral demands are watered down."
I knew someone would claim something like this. Meh, your opinion is about as valuable to me as a warm bucket of hamster vomit. The simple fact of the matter is my father doesn't think that the Bible is literal, it is allegorical, it is midrash, and in some cases just plain fiction. He's actually read much of it in it's original language so I'll take his word for it. It's also very colored and biased by the authors, the many translators, and the social norms of the times in which it was written. I really don't know how anyone can get anything out of it, especially just reading it without knowing or at least studying the societal context in which it was written.
I don't consider the Bible an authoritative source on anything accept what the Bible says, like this post is an authoritative source on what this post says, my father would disagree with me in this respect. -
postman: I know you're gone now, but I can't talk to god again, I've never talked to him in the first place. At one time I lied about it and claimed that I had because it would not have been socially acceptable not to have "spoken" with god, it was all a lie because of social pressures. But if he calls me up tonight I'll let you know.
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postman: don't bother, I've heard it all before. I simply do not know if there is a God or not that's why I call myself agnostic (A weak atheist as opposed to a strong atheist who is sure) I'm most definitely not sure of any particular god, Christ or Yahweh or Krishna or Shiva or Vishnu or.... and I'm comfortable that I never will be. I'm also sure that a truly just god wouldn't hold it against me, and if he's not that "just" then why call him god.
I'm happy you think God gave you a wonderful experience. You've certainly convinced yourself that it was a particular God, but you're interpretation of your own experiences are nothing to me, how could it be. I've met people who have had experiences that they attribute to another God or even Gods in a few cases, they are equally as convinced, and thought I should be too. Sorry, it's not going to happen. -
We have long religious discussions. My father also believes that Christ may have been married to Mary Magdelan and had children, and that Jesus was a man and was not divine until after the resurrection. He doesn't claim to know beyond a doubt however, that's just where his studies have pointed him.
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I don't consider my father to be a fool, though we disagree on religion, faith and god. But my father also believes that there are several paths to heaven, (I'm sure you'd say he's not a true Christian) and he respects other faiths and belief systems. He has studied other religions, he can read ancient Hebrew, and Latin and has studied the Dead Sea Scrolls. He's well educated, and a very-very liberal Christian, and he believes that Christ was too.
He supports the rights of Gays to marry and recognizes (or believes if you prefer) that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Like I said before, you'd probably claim he's not a true Christian, but he lives a more Christ like life than most people I know. -
I have been to more that one Pentacostal church, I found the experience scary and the people to be unthinking and full of hatred for outsiders, though it wasn't overt hatred, it was far more covert, and it was all dressed up and called concern or love but it was definitely not love. Sorry that was my impression.
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postman: Pray all you want, I'm not offended by it. I was raised in a very Christian community, 1500 people and 6 churches, my father was a preacher (now retired). I've seen many of the faces of Christianity, regular church attendance, taken communion, Sunday school, religous confirmation, Christian school, confirmation, served as an alter boy. But to be honest I was lying the whole time, it just took me a long time to be honest with myself about it.
I realized a long time ago that many Christians are in fact not Christians at all, they are hypocrites.. and in my experience many Christians is actually most Christians, including many pastors, priests and preachers.(Though I do not put my father in this group) Blind adherence to rules because they are written in the Bible or because they are dictated by a preacher is a very dangerous thing and from what I can see of opposition to homosexuality it is simply more of the same. -
postman: UNDER GOD was added in 1954 as a knee jerk anti-communist reaction. Though I don`t know why you quoted it. Just because 95% believe in something doesn`t mean anything. 66% of the planet are not Christians, does that mean anything to you. Seems to me that maybe the 33% who call themselves Christians should expand their horizons and find out what the other 66% are thinking, maybe they`d learn something.
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I wonder though kboswell why it is you can`t extend the same respect to all people including homosexuals, they are people after all that simply do not believe as you do. I don`t expect to change your mind, I`d just like you to think about it rationally instead of emotionally. Does freedom not permit those who disagree with you to disagree and to live with their own beliefs.
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kbos: I am agnostic, I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of any god, and neither can you. You have decided to take a gamble that your god is real, and I decided that it is intellectually dishonest to claim I know something that is clearly unknowable. I live in the real world, and while the Bible contains all sorts of wisdom so do other scriptures (and yes I have actually read the Bible and some others) I simply view it as arrogance when one particular faith claims a monopoly on truth, sadly most religions do, thus I stand in opposition to religion particularly of the organized variety. A quick study of history will tell you why.
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sure postman, all faiths make similar claims. Just because it is written does not make it so. I will leave you with a quote from Stephen Roberts
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -
Kboswell, you`re forgiven, please read what is being said instead of taking single quotes out of context to build straw-man arguments.
postman: I can`t show you lots of bodies, but that does not mean they rose from the dead. -
"God's word, it is the ONLY word to have servived since BEFORE recorded history.
BS - The bible (or the word as you call it) was written well after recorded history or we would not know that Hinduism predates both Christianity and Judaism. I thought is was a sin to bear false witness, perhaps you should repent and ask for forgiveness. -
kboswell, are you stupid or something. You're talking about where there is only one consenting adult, the other is a victim. Get a life, your fear mongering hyperbole is going nowhere. We're talking about where both parties to the act are consenting adults, and no one else is involved.
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postman: no one can disprove the existence of the Christian god using science, but then no one can disprove the existence of Krisha, Odin, Thor, Zeus, Cthulu, Allah, the Flying spaghetti monster, or the pink unicorn either. The inability to disprove existence by no means proves existence, that is wishful thinking.
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You may call it anything you like, hatred of the sin but not the sinner or whatever, it's hatred, and all one has to do is look at the moral outrage and the claims of conspiracy. No body bothered to respond to my comments:
Free will? The right to control your own body? Self determination? These are all principles of freedom in our society, they may not be Christian principles, but our society encompasses more than just Christians. The diversity of western society is one of it's greatest strengths, I'm sure that many Christians feel that Hindus, Scientologists, et al. are worships false idols, but do we really want to legislate against other faiths because "they are wrong", homosexuality is really no different. The "sin" does not have the same name, and some may feel that homosexuality is a worse sin, but isn't God supposed to be the judge of that.
Instead calling the US a Judeo/Christian society, well it's not, it's a pluralistic society comprised of many people of many faiths. No particular religious belief should take precedence, and religious freedom is never a justification for limiting the rights of others. As for the complaining that this is override democracy, "activist" judges were overriding democracy when they threw out anti-miscegenation laws too, that doesn't make it wrong.
No one can provide a rational for the immorality of homosexuality that does not rely on religious argument, and the US is supposed to be a free society where freedom of consciousness is not a monopoly of any particular faith. Get over yourselves, you have no monopoly on ethics or morality. The countless crimes of Christians in the name of God throughout history has deprived you of any real moral high ground, you are deluding yourselves, and are repeating the crimes of the past. I'm sure there are some Christians who would love to execute a few homosexuals for for good measure too. It appears to be the religious fundamentalists that hold the bulk of the arrogance in this case.
Thankfully I live in Canada where marriage between same-sex and traditional couples is now a fact of life. And guess what our society is doing just fine, given crime stats, even better than the US.
dbrydges »
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