ELCA Bishops Delay Changes to Ordination Policy

delanok »

Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:12 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 5

rolln4him, what makes you so negative all the time?

Obama Pledges to Ally with Gays for More 'Progress'

delanok »

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

I agree with Gnosticgirl. But I don't believe anyone who favors marriage equality for gay couples is advocating the lessening or weakening of any Christian's rights of any kind.

More likely, some Christians seem to fear that the more mainstream and accepted gays are, the harder it will be to cling to their old beliefs. So they preemptively strike by saying gay equality somehow lessens theirs, when in fact it does no such thing.

Gay Activists and Religious Freedom

delanok »

Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:47 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

b, it's not that simplistic. What I'm saying is, if there was no such institution as marriage, I'm pretty sure straight people would have the exact same track record as gay people.

Your post makes it sound as if gay people are inherently more likely to be in shorter relationship, even if they are treated equally in society. I think that's pretty preposterous. What do you think it is, some kind of gay sleep-around gene?

If you're going to make ridiculous claims like that the least you could do is back them up with something scientific.

Gay Activists and Religious Freedom

delanok »

Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:39 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

believer, you have it backward. Any past propensity for gay people to have more transient relationships will be reversed when they have the same institution available, the institution of civil marriage, to accommodate their settling down into lifelong commitments.

My guess is that gay people will appreciate it so much they will shine a big ugly light on how much straight people take it for granted. Maybe that's what some of you are afraid of.

Conservative Christians Warn Against Obama's Pro-Homosexual Agenda

delanok »

Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

I think we can all stop arguing with Rolln4him. It has been proven on many blogs overthe months that fact, logic, and reason play no part is his twisted nincompoopery.

Some you just have to "write off" as not worth the time.

Through this kind of idiocy I take comfort knowing that 100% equality for gay Americans is closer than ever. It won't be long now.

Gay Activists and Religious Freedom

delanok »

Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

This writer talks of "integrity of marriage."

You know who else thinks marriage is about integrity? Linda Lou Taylor, a 68-year-old Indiana woman who has been married 23 times. One of her marriages lasted a mere 36 hours. Her most recent marriage was an admitted publicity stunt. Scotty Wolfe was the most married man in the world when he made his 29th trip down the aisle with Taylor. They thought it would be fun to be in the Guinness World Records together. I cannot fathom how this is displaying more integrity than a loving, committed gay couple. Taylor canâ

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Forgivensinner - at least we're on the same page about the equality of the gay couple with respect to caregiving and such, in the eyes of the law. That's great.

Prophet - it kills me how much you speak as though you yourself are God. I think you're got a complex.

believer - and what does that have to do with civil marriage licenses at the courthouse?

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:39 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Forgivensinner, with all due respect, little to do with marriage anywhere had a context other than a man and a woman. Even most gay people used only that context until the last several decades. That point does not, in itself, make it right or indicate that it must stay that way forever.

It's like technology. The Bible is silent on much of today's technology (obviously) so we use our God-given gift of judgment to apply the principles to those things that didn't exist then.

The concept of equality for monogamous gay couples may not have been around then, but now that it is I think we should apply the spirit and principle of God to this relatively new societal development. Meaning, if gay couples want to settle down, be more stable and start families we should rejoice.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Prophet - calm down. Why so ruffled?

Do you even read my full posts? You continually misrepresent what I say, as if you don't even understand what I'm writing. I can't keep up with constantly correctly you so go ahead and believe whatever you want about me. (It's abundantly clear that's what you're going to do anyway.)

But why will you not answer my simple question? In fact you didn't address any of the points in my last post to you.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:35 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

believer, we can go around all day and it won't change your mind or mine so we may as well agree to disagree.

What remains, though, is while I respect your opinioon and your right to have it, and live by it, what you and others aim to do is force people who do not share your view to live by your view. That is not fair.

You don't have to marry someone of the same gender. But with all due respect you also have no basis for expecting to stop other people who don't believe it is sinful.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

believer, that's what you say now but back at the time interracial marriage was being debated there were many who used biblical reasons as the basis for their position. Same thing.

I believe one day this will be the same: people will understand that love is love and God does not in fact have any issues with it. It certainly wouldn't be the first time religious interpretation has changed.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:23 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Prophet, I think you're talking in circles. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it any more true.

You didn't answer my question: Do you likewise believe that the door was opened for gay people by black people seeking interracial marriage equality? The timing is just about right, and they were the last group seeking to redefine marriage. So are you consistent with your little theory or do you just randomly blame the big bad gays for everything? (I'm betting it's the latter.)

Don't put words in mouth. I never said gays were "special," you did. Gay are not special. They're just like anyone else. The fact remains (no matter how much you deny it) anyone else's bid for marriage equality will be evaluated separately on its own merits.

If what you mean to say is that this movement may set legal precedence that is later used in argument, I agree with you that is possible. However, that's a good thing not a bad because any precedence set will be legally correct by our constitution. If our constitution troubles you that much maybe that's something you should look at.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Prophet, that is your opinion only and one that suggests more fear than fact. Do you likewise believe that the door was opened for gay people by black people seeking interracial marriage equality?

In the meantime anyone else's bid for marriage equality is irrelevant to that of gay people. Should any ever come up in the future they will be evaluated on their own merits.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:40 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Grace2, I wish you would stop perpetuating dishonest information. You do humanity a great disservice by doing that.

Check the sources of your data. They all have a clear and vested interest in denigration gay people. Come on. Let's see you dig up nonsense like that from a respected, objective source such as the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, etc. The fact is, accepted scientific concensus supports few if any of those charges.

I'd also like to point out two things:

1. If gay people are in any way unhappier I think it follows logically that they would not be if people such as yourself stopped harassing them, discriminating against them, condemning them to hell, etc.

2. If motorcycle drivers are more likely than auto drivers to sustain head injuries when traveling, are we as a society to deny marriage licenses to motorcycle drivers because we disapprove of their behavior, we think it's "bad and unhealthy?" Please think for a moment how far reaching the consequences of your "logic" are.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

believer, three things I will leave you with:

1. In all my years, through every stage of life, I have never, not even once, known what it's like to feel sexually or romantically attracted to the opposite sex. I have obviously seen it all around as what is "normal" yet I myself have not felt it. On the other hand, every memory or gut feeling I have known that is in any way sexual or romantic has been for my same gender. I didn't manufacture that. I couldn't even comprehend it until recognizing it from within me. In fact, once I faced it I tried to kill myself for fear of the misery and pain it would bring me. I ask you: do you really believe I somehow chose this, even subconsciously? Or that I could somehow become heterosexual if I tried hard enough?

2. I have four siblings who are all the same gender, attended the same schools, lived in the same house, played with the same neighbor kids, everything. Our parents treated us very much equally and evenly. How do you explain that only I am gay?

3. In the end, I know God created me as I am. I also know I am gay. And I have a tremendous capacity to love and be part of a beautiful romantic relationship, one that is productive and nurturing and enables both people to be the best person they can be in the world. It would be cruel for God to expect me to never use my capacity to love. That is largely why I simply do not believe homosexuality is sinful. I know some say the church states it irrefutably, but the church also thought the world was flat. The church can be wrong.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Forgivensinner, what makes it different from addictions or other negative behavior is that there is nothing "bad or unhealthy" about it. Certain people with certain religious-based objections are the only ones in the entire picture who say there's a problem.

When a person is gay and lives honestly about it, no law is broken. There is no victim. There is no negative result (as there is with a chemical addiction for example).

Some people may believe being gay is bad, but that is merely their opinion. Unless someone is forcing them to live a gay life, it's really none of their business.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Believer, I really must respectfully disagree with that. I know full well there are "studies" (some credible, some not) and articles and writings with all sorts of varying viewpoints, but I strongly submit to you that if we truly account for credibility, objectivity and the robustness of the data gathering and the hypothesizing processes, the very clearest thing to a concensus does not indicate choice. Absolutely not.

If you want to I will engage with you on this and dig up the data and sources, because I am 100% certain that the clearest concensus the world has is that the cause of homosexuality is some unknown combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental factors. "Choice" is not among the factors.

No evidence and no common sense supports even the notion that gay people chose to be gay. No one would choose it!

Again, if you want to engage on this please say so. I hate to get bogged down with a dry data exchange, and it will take a bit of time, but I will absolutely disprove that notion that there is any kind of concensus that concludes people choose to be gay.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

P, why do you have to have the last word, and why does it have to be a sideways little dig meant to demean those who are different from you?

No matter how hard I can try to be civil and debate/discuss honestly with you (I know sometimes I fail, but I do try), in the end you can't resist belittling my faith.

THAT is sad. And mean.

If you are as superior in your faith as you purport to be, why aren't you above that?

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Believer - I agree with you that neither side can say with 100% certainty what leads to variation in sexual orientation.

The best concensus we have is that it's a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences, AND that the combination itself may vary from one person to the next.

However, none of those things (genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences) are the same as "choosing" it.

I'm glad we're drilling down on this because it's important.

"Choosing" implies that the gay person can snap their fingers and become straight, and that just is not the case. Not any more than a straight person can snap their fingers and become gay.

As long as people cling to this choice thing, it let's them off the hook for their meanness. They think, "Well it's your own fault you gay person, you asked for it by choosing to be gay." When in fact that is supremely insulting because if people truly could choose they would never, ever choose such a thing.

Sometimes I hope for science to get to the bottom of it, to prove that gay people are innocent, so that the meanness toward them stops. Then I worry that once science does prove it those same mean people will push to genetically engineer it away or abort gay fetuses or other horrible things.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

delanok »

Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

P, I follow both man's law and God's law. When the two conflict I use my God-given abilities to discern what I think is right by the SPIRIT of the Lord.

That's probably why I find it horrendously insulting when people casually dismiss my faith and how God moves in my life just because it does not mimic them. Talk about vanity.