'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

hautechick »

Sat May 03, 2008 7:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<I’m not sure if it’s amusing or sad to watch some folks try and ignore the obvious ties between the Nazi’s and the teaching of Nietzsche/Darwin. Reminds me of what some professor of sociology said once, “When we lack the will to see things as they really are, there is nothing so mysterious as the obvious.”>>

Article 24 of Hitler's Nazi party programs calls for "Positive Christianity". Among the 25 points of the core values of this new Christianity, as explained by German philosopher Ernst Bergmann in 1934, is point number six which states: "The German religion is a religion of the people. It has nothing in common with free thoughts, atheist propaganda, and the breakdown of current religions." Shermer, The Science of Good and Evil: p153

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

hautechick »

Sat May 03, 2008 7:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

AND
"Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie."

AND
"In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience."

It can be proven with FACT that Luther inspired HITLER. Hitler even quotes Luther in his PUBLIC SPEECHES, and so do other high ranking Nazi officials.


William Nichols, Professor of Religious Studies, recounts, "At his trial in Nuremberg after the Second World War, Julius Streicher, the notorious Nazi propagandist, editor of the scurrilous antisemitic weekly, Der Stürmer, argued that if he should be standing there arraigned on such charges, so should Martin Luther. Reading such passages, it is hard not to agree with him. Luther's proposals read like a program for the Nazis." (William Nichols, Christian Antisemitism: A History of Hate (Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1995), p. 271).

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

hautechick »

Sat May 03, 2008 7:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

<<In the end, the connection is there like it or not. And no connection between Nazism and true Christianity can be found. Did Hitler use religious terminology? Sure. But switching labels on a bottle doesn’t change what’s inside. >>

Then Martin Luther was NOT a true Christian by your standard? The FATHER of the REFORMATION, was not a TRUE Christian? Will you indulge me while I demonstrate my point with HIS own quotes:
"Set fire to their synagogues and schools. Jewish houses should be razed and destroyed, and Jewish prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, curing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them." Their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."
AND
"Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."
AND
"Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch-thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security."

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

hautechick »

Thu May 01, 2008 6:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

Quecat said...
<<Can you say that in public? Every Darwinist within earshot is going to spew as much hatred and rhetoric as possible in order to shout down the truth. Ideas have consequences - evolution is no exception.>>

Are you willing to discredit the scientific theories and blame Albert Einstein, who facilitated the development of the invention of the atomic bomb, for the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Your logic implies that you will.
What negative consequences and measurable harm does the theory of evolution pose? SOME Christians believe it is only a theory- if it's only a theory, Quecat, how can it cause measurable harm?
With that leap in logic, you might as well just say video games based on sex, theft and violence are forcing children to become rapists, murderers and thieves. Right?

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

hautechick »

Thu May 01, 2008 5:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

“The ideas of Charles Darwin helped fuel the Nazi killing machine, which took the lives of some 10-15 million people,” he(Jerry Newcombe) said in a statement.

Such illogic.

It could be justifiably and hotly argued that the repetitive late night infomercials promoting Ginzu Knives are responsible for the rise in stabbing DEATHS.

It could also be justifiably and hotly argued that cookbooks inspire people to overeat and become GLUTTONS. I mean, just looking at all the photos of the delicious food in a cookbook creates an insurmountable sense of hunger.

It could also be justifiably and hotly argued that just looking at pictures of money causes people to become GREEDY.

Linking an idea with Hitler or Nazism has become a common form of argument ascribing guilt by association.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:59 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

aimes said...
<<If you care to invest some time into learning the truth, you should start with a great book, called The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. >>

Josh MacDowell has sullied his reputation with what I believe to be a "false testimony." He makes several false claims about his life, his family and his travel, and when he was faced with it he blamed the writer who wrote the article.
I don't read material written by discredited, nonpeer-reviewed sources. Josh Mac Dowell is not a scientist, he's a religious zealot.
What really bothers me is as a "Christian," he's willing to lie to people in order to make others think more highly of him, than he may be lying in his books.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

aimes said...
<<Ancient cities and civilizations only mentioned in the Bible, like Jericho and Ur have been excavated. Outside witnesses, such as the Jewish historian Josephus, the 1st century Roman Tacitus, and Emperor Trajan, among others, attest to the fact that many of the stores mentioned in the Bible are true. >>

Do you believe then, that EVERYTHING written in the Bible is true? Do you for instance believe animals talked, the sun stopped in the sky, the sun revolves around the Earth? Those three questionable Bible errors are proof enough to me that mythology, a desire for human understanding of a good explanation and religiously inspired thinking of the two are the crux of the matter. However, you are free to believe what you will, DID I ever say otherwise? No, I only spoke that my beliefs are for myself.

<<It is obvious to me that you only wish to argue your point, and God is not the author of confusion.>>

So asking questions that are pertinant to the topic demonstrates I only wish to argue? BTW, I'm not confused. I am however disappointed that you haven't answered any of my questions.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

aimes said
<<But if you only care to sit here and argue and be condescending, then you can continue making your “point” online just the way you are. As for me however, it is time for me to read my Bible.>>

I'm being condescending because I have "dared" to challenged your Biblically based knowledge? I asked you several questions and none of them got an answer. Asking legitimate questions that are pertinent to the topic is not condescending. However, calling people "Dear One," and saying "You seem to have a problem with God," and "You have animosity towards God" is condescending. Why? Because it suggests that you think you know me better than I know myself, and take a tone that suggests my attitude is out of line. I presented my questions honestly, and instead of you answering them, you ANALYZED by behavior.
Will you please rethink my questions and answer them?

<<And as far as you thinking you’re not a sinner. Romans 3:23 says you are.>>

It doesn't matter to me, what the Bible says, the Bible has 143 contradictions in it, so why should I believe I am a sinner if someone got some things wrong. People are wrong ALL the time, it's forgivable in my estimation, but if there are identifiably 143 contradictions, needless to say someone claiming to be inspired by God may just be wrong about sin. However, you can believe you are sinful ALL you want, heck, you can call me sinner until you lose your voice, I however, am not obliged in the least to accept that theory.

<<And since the Bible was inspired by God and is His word, I prefer to believe what He says about you, rather than what you say about yourself. May God Bless you and keep you, always.>>

No, "and since YOU believe the Bible is inspired by God... " can you see where you're being condescending? Your claiming an impossibility- you can not prove the Bible is anymore inspired by God than you can prove A Theif in The Night is.
However, you ignored my questions in order to puff yourself up in an attempt to demonstrate your beliefs are superior to mine- well, there's the proof that you'd be hard pressed at this point in the venture to disprove just how condescending you really are being to me. Do you have any more rocks to throw at me in the name of your lord?

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

lewr2 said...
<<Hautechick.... how do you know you just die? Have you ever just died? >>

I think this is what I actually said, "The FACT of life, is that it ends in death, and realistically everyone will one day die- it's not the result of sin, it is a natural FACT of the process called LIFE." I have had family members, friends and have read about alot of people who have died to conclude it is a NATURAL fact of life. Do you think maybe you just missed my point, or do you think others who read this won't be able to read what I actually wrote? And, do you really think people reading this board can't spot your illogic?

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

hautechick »

Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 8

FWIW, I found a very succint blogger who summed up his sentiments on the subject very nicely in my opinion...
"Standard — if potentially illegal — human resources techniques of forcing an employee from a job by creating a poisoned work environment and setting up ”conditions” for eventual dismissal hardly strike one as Christian, and it is perhaps surprising an organization that so aggressively bills itself as upholding Christian morality would countenance such behaviour, which is essentially deceitful and fraudulent. There is then the larger irony of an organization like Christian Horizons, which according to its own mission statement is run with the admirable view to helping the marginalized, would so persecute a member of another marginalized group, in the name of Christian love." http://straydogcafe.wordpress.com/

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

hautechick »

Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

<<It doesn't change the fact that a contract was signed (and presumably read by the plaintive before signing), but if we are to follow the law, then we should follow it as best we can, but only as we hold to God's commandments to us.>>

Christian Horizons did not respect rights of the plaintiff while it was operating within its private sphere(before it began accepting state funds,) however When CH became an agent of state policy it lost its ability to resist state morality. Christian Horizons is an organization that has a history of human rights complaints and has rigorously defended its discriminatory policies in the past by saying it recognizes society's laws but it also must obey God's laws.

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

hautechick »

Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:12 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

DannyPoo said,
<<Certainly I can see the State deciding they will not fund this Organization, that's the states choice. However I doubt that would be the case because of the enourmous good this group does.>>

The good or bad this company does isn't what's on trial. They are on trial and lost a lawsuit because they accept state funds yet they are guilty of discrimination in a state which penalizes businesses which break the anti-discrimination law. This company must comply with the law or jeopardize it's STATE funding. It would be a shame to see it close, because the result could be many disabled children and their parents will be inconvenienced. However, laws are laws.

<<The way the State law is set up however, requires this Religious organization to go against their beliefs.>>

Don't you think they knew the laws against discrimination? They are after all required to fill out many forms in order to receive funding- governments don't just hand out money without proper filing of legal documents.

<<If the state doesn't like it they could simply reject their non-profit status and stop funding them, but instead of doing that they enact a law that forces a modifcation of a Religious belief.>>

This is an ethical question raised about penalizing DISCRIMINATION. It is not a state enforced modification of religious beliefs. Freedom of religion doesn't apply only to Christians, it also protects those who don't want religion. Instead of Christian Horizons being a discrimination based business, it will have to examine it's policies if it wants to generate and receive state funds.

<<It's a heavy injustice, enacted by those who are intolerant of Christian beliefs. In the name of Tolerance, they have become Intolerant. >>

What if some other random state supported non-profit harrassed it's Christian employees just for being who they are, made them sign a waiver that they will not allow any talk of religion, crosses, tee-shirts which espouse their beliefs etc, and made the work environment intolerant for the Christians? Wouldn't you want justice for the person who is being discriminated and victimized in this instance? I would, fair is fair.

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

hautechick »

Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<The kick in the you-know-where is that they want to foist this misguided logic upon everyone who might want to provide help as well. They don't just want God expelled from the schools and courthouses, they want him expelled from our hearts.>>

It's not a kick in the "you know what" for companies who accept millions of dollars in STATE FUNDING to be required to comply with the STATES laws.
BTW, noone wants to see God expelled from your hearts, "we" just want the guaranteed rights of the people who elected to keep church and state seperate, regularly enforced.

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

hautechick »

Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<Your comparison is that of a Company. This is a Christian Ministry, not a corporation. A secular Company should not fire for something "sinful" that does not effect or involve their job duties.>>
Ministries that accept STATE funding, are companies, corporations, organizations etc. and whether or not it is a religious based nonprofit, it's still a company, corporation, organization etc.

From the article,
"In a statement, Barbara Hall, the Chief Commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, wrote approvingly of the decision by the tribunal.
This decision is important because it sets out that when faith-based and other organizations move beyond serving the interests of their particular community to serving the general public, the rights of others, including employees, must be respected,” she said."

and,
"Christian Horizons is one of the largest organizations in Canada dedicated to caring for the disabled, receiving about $75 million annually through the Ontario Ministry of Community and Social Services."

To a company with an annual STATE sponsored $75 million, Christian Horizons can obviously pay out this loss.

FWIW, it is after all a company, and it's revenues are generated from the Ministry of Community and Social Services- in the USA, if an organization, company, or a non profit business receives STATE funding, they must abide by the state laws, not the "laws" of Christianity- it's a FACT that I'm sure aggrivates those whose goals are related to discrimination and disenfranchizing others.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

aimes said...
<<I don’t need to know you, but I know that as a human, you are a sinner, and the wages of sin is death.>>

I don't recall asking you to know me. I don't usually get to know others through the internet. I prefer to get to know others by meeting them face to face. I think that you should reserve your judgment that "as a human you are a sinner" for those who believe that. I don't happen to believe that statement. Just as you are free to believe you are a sinner saved by grace, I am free to believe that I do not sin. The FACT of life, is that it ends in death, and realistically everyone will one day die- it's not the result of sin, it is a natural FACT of the process called LIFE.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

aimes said...
<<Regarding suffering- Why does God allow suffering to exist in the world? There are numerous reasons, and I’m sure there are a few that we don’t even know. First, suffering is usually the result of what we ourselves have done.>>

You said "usually, the result of what we ourselves have done" soooo, I'm not suffering in the least, and I bet I could find many others who'll attest to not suffering; so you can't possibly be correct in your assumption.

<<Our past sins may cause us to endure suffering.>>

Past sins as in former lives- do you believe in reincarnation?

<<Secondly, suffering increases perseverance, which strengthens our faith in God and our testimonies to His faithfulness.>>

I persever, am having a great life, have great relationships and and am very healthy, sooo, how does that make your assumption correct?

<<Thirdly, suffering exists because humans are agents of free will.>>

So are you saying because of FREE WILL humans cause the suffering of others? Then it can't be evil or a devil behind the suffering, right?

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

aimes said...
<<hautechick:
What do you think about God? After reading your e-mails, it appears to me (and I don’t know you, and I am not judging you, but I am basing it on the tone of your e-mails here), that you do have a problem with God. You have some sort of animosity towards Him, or maybe you feel He let you down or something.

I think about GOD as any reasonable person raised does. I just don't buy into the mythology about GOD. I have studied other religions and most have very similar explanations for the Creation story, the "Fall of Man" and the redemption story. I have no problem at all with God, I just experience God differently than perhaps you do, and if that makes me seem like I have a problem, than you are wron.
The irony is, as I read your post to me, is that while I express myself and my understanding of God in realistic terms with honesty and facts, you can't substantiate what you say with anything outside the Bible.
FWIW, I have no animosity towards God, and I don't feel God has let me down at all- my life is above prosperous, my health is excellent, my family and friends love me and I love them, and yet I would never dare to say it's because God favors me or something ludicris as that.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

The reason I "clarified" that it is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is because it is important to know the origin of the use of terms, especially when explaining that the creation/fall is symbolic mythology- all cultures have and passed onto generations fables, allegories, mythologies and heroic tales in their oral history traditions. It explained in unelightened terms how humans arrived on this planet.
A FABLE is a brief, succinct story, in prose or verse, that features animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature which are anthropomorphized (given human qualities), and that illustrates a moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be expressed explicitly in a pithy maxim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable

A fable differs from a parable in that the latter excludes animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as actors that assume speech and other powers of humankind.

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<God created the tree of good and evil (same word). >>

Actually, it's called The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or in some translations The Tree of Conscience.
According to the Jewish tradition God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree that was to give free choice and allow them to earn, as opposed to receive, absolute perfection and intimate communion with God at a higher level than the one on which they were created. According to this tradition, Adam and Eve would have attained absolute perfection and retained immortality had they succeeded in withstanding the temptation to eat from the Tree. After failing at this task, they were condemned to a period of toil to rectify the fallen universe. Jewish tradition views the serpent, and sometimes the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil itself, as representatives of evil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge_of_Good_and_Evil

Theologians: Why Does God Allow Suffering?

hautechick »

Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<Your problem is not with the interpretation of the Bible, your problem is with God. If you deny His book, you deny Him.>>

Oh really? That's interesting because I asked you some questions in my first response which you totally ignored and instead presented both red herring and straw man fallacies and consdescention.
Oh, and how do my questions to you indicate that I have a problem with God? A real answer would be nice.
My questions and responses FACTUALLY indicate that I only have a problem with YOUR interpretation of the Bible.