ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Hi,

Questions for HM:

Hi, hope you are well. I had a great day.

This is what's been on my mind. Please note I respect you and Mike, I care about you and where you spend eternity, and I am not posting because I love a good argument but out of love and concern. There is no animosity or ill feeling from me whatsoever.

These thoughts are bugging me: Where are the manuscripts in which homosexuality is not mentioned? We have more ancient manuscripts of the bible than any other works of literature, by tens of thousands. We have a handful of Virgil, Homer, etc., but thousands and thousands of OT and NT manuscripts. They are all virtually exact when compared, and modern bibles always notate variations, which are usually insignificant. Scholars accept Virgil, etc., as authoritative and not corrupted. How much more the O and NT's? And they all have the Leviticus passage. Can you produce any evidence of a manuscript where the infamous edict is omitted? The ancient Hebrew scribes burned any scroll upon which they made a mistake. We only have unadulterated manuscripts.

Would you, Mike, or anyone be willing to totally surrender to the Lord in fasting and prayer asking for His guidance, not the Christians on this thread, for how HE feels about homosexuality and whether it is His plan for mankind and for you? He tells us that if we seek, we will find, and if we search for Him with ALL our heart, He will be found of us. Would you be willing to lay it all on the line and beg Him for radical, supernatural, divine revelation, and a total willingness to repent and lay it down if He showed you in fact that the bible, as is, is true?

If you (God forbid) found yourselves in eternal torment for rejecting His word and His offer of salvation according to the whole counsel of the bible--would you feel it had been worth it? Or would you regret it? Is the lifestyle, the community, the identity, the sexuality all worth it? Could it be possible that it plainly is not His design and plan and best for you and it is a counterfeit to keep you from His best, His plan, His blessing, and His salvation? Would it have been worth it?

These aren't rhetorical. I truly am asking for permission to know the answers.

Southern Baptists Celebrate Obama Election; Decry His Policies

jacqueline_g »

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Well said, BDawg.

Southern Baptists Celebrate Obama Election; Decry His Policies

jacqueline_g »

Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Mike 85,

May I ask what evidence you have that homosexuality was added into the bible, by whom, how, and when? Thank you.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Mike 85,

Paul instructed Timothy to be completely given over to doctrine, along with faith, etc. It is right for Prophet and Jehovahnissi, etc., to be sticklers about this. Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword, setting people against each other, because we are in the middle of this cosmic battle for men's eternal souls. Jesus explicitly said that the road leading to life was *narrow* and *difficult* and that there would be *few* who found it. Isn't it narrow-minded and harsh to call homosexuality a sin? Yet that is exactly what Jesus prepared us for: a difficult, narrow road. He said to cut off your HAND if it causes you to sin. Because some on this thread insist on keeping their sins and still claiming Christ, can you blame anyone for calling you out on it? It really is willful delusion, with all due respect. It is a false comfort that will end in terror and I for one, truly care about where you spend eternity, way more than you could imagine.
Any sin, whatever it is, that we forsake for Christ will be replaced with so much joy and fullness of life, there is no comparison. No sin holds a candle to the riches of repentance.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer, you are right about Jesus. He even name-called ("brood of vipers") and He was consumed with zeal for the right treatment of God's house. Homosexuals are abusing the temple of God, as well, that is, their bodies. I agree that some here are presenting a false Christianity that does not save at all. Please show me Scriptures, though, where the apostles, not Jesus, are harsh with men, as many as you can find. I think of Paul telling the rejecting Jews that they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life by rejecting his preaching, and for the disciples to shake off the dust of their sandals against the towns that rejected their preaching, so I see your point, but please persuade me with scripture that the harshness and name-calling on these threads is appropriate. There are so many scriptures commanding gentleness. It is hard to reconcile.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I hear you, believer. And I'm new to this thread, and everyone here is so welcoming and gracious to allow me to jump right in. Thanks to everyone. It just seems to me that Christians are under a microscope and we are expected by God and man to be gentle and humble even with our enemies. And I know that I used to be such an obnoxious, arrogant, atheistic skeptic, but it was the humble, intelligent Christians who really caught my attention and my ear. Abraham Lincoln said, "It is an old and true maxim that a drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall." It seems to me that that is the high road I hope to learn to take.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer, that's totally true. Jesus repeatedly validated the divine authority of Scripture and further illuminated it. What He invalidated was the way the religious leaders cited Religious Traditions and Man's Opinions as being more authoritative than Scripture. That, HM, was what got Him in trouble. He exposed the fraudulence of their "spirituality" to be hypocrisy and oppression. He told Satan during His temptation that man must live on "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." That's why we Christians are so insistent about not twisting or dismissing the Scriptures. But, Believer, our words are to be salt, creating a thirst for Him, not swords to pierce people with.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dear Weekenderman,

It seems rather mean-spirited to call HM a liar and a troll. As Christians, we are called to the very highest standard of patience and mercy. I do agree that one cannot be a Christian if one practices sin. John tells us that in Revelation and 1 John. But do you really know HM's heart? Do you see inside his motives? I think he seems like an intelligent, earnest seeker. Why else would he listen at all as Christians warn him about the threat of eternal damnation? Christians are commanded to "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" (1 Peter 3:15). Just my two cents. : )

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

(Part II to HM)

About apparent contradictions, those are fun! because if you pursue those diligently, you will soon discover the bible is infallible! Proverbs says there is no wisdom, counsel, or understanding against the Lord. As a skeptic and a passionate searcher, I have found that to be hands-down absolutely true. You mentioned the age of the ancients before Noah. Seems like a fairy tale, right? Well. . . the earth had a very different climate before the flood. You know all those palm tree fossils in Siberia? It all started out tropical. There was certainly a different level of humidity and I postulate, oxygen, in the atmosphere, and the capacity for life was just not as limited as it is now. Read the creation account in Genesis and it describes water in the firmament (sky). The ice age, the extinction of the dinosaurs, these came after the Flood. And also, the sin thing. Our DNA was pure and robust in Eden, so a long life span was not implausible. When sin entered, death and the whole Pandora's Box entered, i.e., entropy. We began to break down. But God didn't strike Adam dead on the spot. He lived a long time, populated the earth, etc. Sometimes God's decrees are a long time coming. But they come.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

HM,

You make alot of great points. This is a great dialogue. And I'm having a great day, thanks! Hope you are, too. Okay, let me tackle a few. On infalliability of God's word: it's everywhere in Scripture, like one of the most pervasive themes. I could write all day about it. I have to calm down! You seem to be pretty bible-literate. Psalm 119 is a good one for this subject because it is all about God's word. The bible describes itself as God's word, law, precepts, statutes, ordinances, the word of the Lord, etc. Jesus said that God's word (the bible) is eternal and will never pass away. David says, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. . .every word of God is pure, refined in the fire seven times. By them your servant is warned, and in keeping them is great reward." The bible is God's expression of His nature in verbal form; Jesus is the word of God, God's expression to man, in incarnate form. Both are holy, perfect, and worthy of worship--David said in Psalm 56, "I will praise His word."

So on to authenticity and apparent contradictions. The bible wasn't sealed and declared complete at Malachi (O.T.); there was a 400 year silence that was predicted much earlier in Scripture: a "famine of the word of the Lord." It was in Jesus' Revelation to John in the first century that He declared Scripture finished and sealed and not to be added to or taken away from, under threat of damnation. This bible business is serious stuff, and God says not to mess with it, pick and choose, etc. Very high up on God's priority list, which makes sense because it is His love invitation to mankind and He paid for our redemption with His blood. We would all guard such a costly letter fiercely.

At the Council of Nicea where the canon of Scripture was officially recognized, there was not some controversy like Dan Brown fabricates. Everyone knew what and whom the imposters were and officially recognizing which books were inspired and which ones were cult-y imposters was a no-brainer. The church had this in the bag, but the Gnostics were coming up with fake "books of the Bible" and the church had to make a clear delineation.

Side note: God says that the way everyone can know His word is in fact true is because His is the only book that declares the end from the beginning. The fulfilled prophecies are astronomically impossible, statistically speaking. If you want to talk about that, let me know.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Oh, and I do agree with you that everyone has the right to live as they see fit. That is the beauty of free will and I am intensely glad for it. Though, perhaps, if the bible is right, even sins that "don't hurt anyone" actually do cause harm by default, because we are not spending our lives in the will of God. Jesus went around "doing good" and destroying the works of the devil. He never would have been Who He was if He catered to his baser instincts. I can really tell the difference in my own life when I am living selfishly in little "insignificant" things vs. living sacrificially for the will of God. He uses me much more mightily when I am obeying Him whatever the cost. When I am living for my own cravings and inclinations I am either nullified or sometimes, plain nasty. The good is the enemy of the best, and the bad is still worse.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

HM, obviously, I'm new; would you mind re-laying some groundwork: do you acknowledge that the bible *claims* to be the infallible word of God? And also, do you believe it was written by men and is flawed, or that it was written by God through men carried along by the Holy Spirit? Or something else?

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Hi Homosexual Man,

It seems to me that few people "choose" to be gay. I tried to be bisexual in my teens and I just couldn't go through with it. I am not yet persuaded that homosexuality is purely genetic, though. It seems that environment has alot to do with it as well. But do gays get out of bed and say, "I think I'll be attracted to the same sex?" I don't think they do from what I've heard. Did you?

While I do agree with literal scripture that homosexuality is a sin, I don't elevate it over any other sins. And I don't think it ultimately matters whether being gay is genetic, environmental, choice, or any combination thereof. We were all born with this fatal curse of sin. With me, I believe I am genetically predisposed to addiction. I have to wrestle against the sin of gluttony. It used to be hard partying. Jesus delivered me from sexual addiction and substance addiction. He is delivering me slowly from gluttony and has called me to a raw food diet. It's like sacrificing Isaac on the altar--whom do I love--God or food? Sounds petty, but excruciating to me. Also, through environment, I am predisposed to terrible anger. Wrath is a work of the flesh that sends sinners to hell.

My long winded point is that we are all in the same boat. We are all saturated with sin through no choice of our own and we are naturally inclined to some more than others. The sooner we face it, the sooner we can get the cure and be free of it.

If you had AIDS or cancer, and there was a humiliating, pride crushing cure that would render you healthy forever, would you take it anyways, or would you grumble in pride and stay ill? You would take it, I believe! That is Jesus' offer. Believe He is God and that He is good and He knows what He's doing, and all the evil will bow to the good and your life will triumph. I personally testify it is what He has done and is doing with me.

I'm sorry Christians have hurt you.

'Stoning of Soraya M.' Sheds Light on Human Cruelty, Islam

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Got it, Mathetes. Thanks.

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

jacqueline_g »

Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Mike85, as a Christian who believes the bible literally, can I apologize on behalf of every Christian who has failed to defend you, regardless of opinions and positions discussed by you or them? I really hurt that you have been defamed and slandered and that no one came to your defense. You deserve better and I'm sorry.

To the Christians I might be offending: I'm sorry for sticking my head into matters that have nothing to do with me. I know this isn't my argument. I know it was just resolved. Please forgive me. I hurt for Mike 85.

'Stoning of Soraya M.' Sheds Light on Human Cruelty, Islam

jacqueline_g »

Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Thanks for the warm welcome, Mathetes. This is a cool discussion, if I didn't come in too late and everyone's moved on!

'Stoning of Soraya M.' Sheds Light on Human Cruelty, Islam

jacqueline_g »

Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Hi,

Could I break into this thread? I wanted to comment on an evolution post and also the mean-god debate.

On evolution, the west-Nile virus birds survived not because they acquired new characteristics through mutations, but because the ones who didn't have the disease resistance expressed in their genes died off. All the information was pre-encoded in the birds' DNA, so they survived. Micro-evolution like this is real and observable. It never creates features or species, but winnows down the species from DNA information that is already there. Macro-evolution, on the other hand, where one species changes into another, is not observed currently nor in the fossil record. Even Darwin admitted that the fossil record would be the deal breaker, because he fully expected to find an overwhelming amount of intermediary species (reptiles with half-wings, etc.) But because a scientific theory that precludes God is so alluring, evidence contrary to evolution is ignored. I'm sorry to say that, but it's the sad truth. I wish it were otherwise.

About God being mean and torture-loving. I used to wholeheartedly see it the same way. I was offended that God would send me to hell just for picking the wrong (or no) religion. How arbitrary! That is not just!!! And the whole problem of evil! How could a good and all-powerful God allow it? Impossible--I thought. He is much, much bigger than our conception of good and evil. His understanding is unsearchable.

This might sound either stupid or arrogant; nonetheless it's true: God wants us to KNOW Him and understand Him intimately. This is what He said in Jeremiah, "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, nor the strong man glory in his strength, nor the rich man glory in his riches. But let him who glories and boasts, glory in this, that he knows and understands me, that I am the Lord, executing righteousness, judgment, and lovingkindness on the earth, for IN THESE I DELIGHT." He wants us to know Him for ourselves--this God isn't on a power trip! He wants to share in everything he has--with us!! Isn't that elevating, not cruel? He wants to make us His sons and let us inherit IT ALL. This is what He's like. And I do know Him--very intimately and in truth-- and He is altogether lovely and exquisite beyond description. You name it--He's better. This isn't a vapid, hypocritical religious system designed by satan to blind us and keep us from the real deal. And "in these I delight": God delights in righteousness, judgment, and lovingkindness. Not just one. And would you worship a God who didn't delight in destroying evil and doing right and being loving? That's Him. He wants you to know Him. He wants to bless you and heal you and honor you and save you from your every enemy, known as well as unknown.