Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:11 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

RBB, here are the Joyce Myers quotes you asked for.

1) “Several years ago I found myself completely worn out from trying to fight the devil. I learned many ‘methods’ of spiritual warfare; however, they did not seem to be working ... I had fallen into the trap that many Christians fall into. I had the right teaching, but the wrong order ... I was feverishly applying methods I had learned — like fasting and prayer ... rebuking and resisting evil spirits ... empty formulas which wear us out and produce no results except maybe a sore throat” (The Word, The Name, The Blood, pp. 28, 32, 33).


2) Her now-unavailable tape, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” continued to teach the “Born-Again Jesus” doctrine; she also subsequently says that she is not a sinner:

“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

This is what the Bible says; not what Joyce Myers says:

The Apostle John says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). It is Christ’s righteousness imparted to us, not ours, that makes us righteous.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

RBB wrote:

"jc4me -
I was responding to Jesus being " in Hell". I think you'll find that the "born again man" is more of a metaphor. Just as the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, and there is nowhere in the Bible that says when you die you "go to heaven". You do believe in the Trinity, and going to Heaven even though it's not "scriptural" right?"

Yes, I know you were referring to Jesus decscending into "hell" or "hades" or into the "grave", but in needed to show you why I disagree with her fundamental doctrines. And yes I do believe in the Trinity, and I firmly believe it is Scriptural. And no, when Joyce Myers uses the prase "the first born again man" refering to Jesus, I don't believe it is a metaphor. I believe it is tied in with the erroneous teachings of the Word Faith Movement.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Numbers 23:19 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.



19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:53 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Gracemand: Could it be that Mr. Kenneth Copeland had some "special revelation" apart from the Scriptures? Maybe you can answer that as well.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:51 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Graceman worte:

"jc4me , Perhaps Copeland bases his teaching on Romans 8:29, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers,” NIV. He has a different interpretation of scripture than you. Big deal! It is not the end of the Christian faith. Copeland shares what ancient Jewish scholars think about the creation of man. I do not find a problem with that.

Of course I understand that your views are set in stone. You will not accept the scriptures I show you or my testimony about how God is prospering me. But just because you do not believe it does mean it is not true. Fortunately in the Christian faith we have freedom. "

Graceman, what does Romans 8:29 have to do with Adam being like God, or that God is a man with certain height with a certain hand span size, when the Word says that God can measure the Universe with the span of His hand? Perhaps you can answer this for Mr. Copeland as well? Please read the whole counsel of God, not just what you believe to be an interpretation by a so called teacher of the Word; which is subsequently a false one.

here is Copelands quote(s) again so yo can address that specifically in your answer and tell me if anywhere in the Word you can find what he is teaching?:

"Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:43 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

RBB:

No where i the Scriptures you mention does the Bible indicate that Christ was the first born again man. If you or Joyce Myers, or anyone else can prove to me Scripturally that Christ was the first born again man, then please do so. I checked out the Apostles Creed, and it does not mention this "born again Jesus". I agree with Christ decending and ministering to the spirits held captive in prison since the days of Noah, because that is biblical.

Here is that Scripture to prove my point:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.



Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[a] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[b] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Footnotes:

1 Peter 3:18 NU-Text and M-Text read you.
1 Peter 3:20 NU-Text and M-Text read when the longsuffering of God waited patiently.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:07 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

RBB wrote:

"jc4me - you quoted

“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36)."

It would seem that quite a few Christians of different denominations agree with this view of where Jesus was, during at least part of the three days. It is present in the Apostles Creed, and spoken of in some places in scripture - see Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Psalm 16:10-11. Do you consider all who believe this heretics?"

To answer your question, those who believe it, obviously were erroniously taught it, or they learned it thru some other extra-biblical means. A "born-again Jesus" is no where taught in the Scriptures, so yes, those who believe it are in error, but those who flat out teach it are the ones teaching false doctrines and are heretics. I would hope that those who believe it out of ignorance would somehow have the truth taught to them, so they can know the truth that will set them free, those who have taught it, and continue to teach it as false doctrine would repent, recall their books, their commentaries and make public professions of how this is false doctrine and they are trully sorry for misleading so many baby Christians into believing this heresy.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:01 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Continued to RBB:

Question#4

"How can someone be using the money (82%) of it, in preaching, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans, building churches and still be using it to line their own pockets? "

The answer to this is easy. Look at the homes they live in, the cars they drive, and what they preach.

Benny Hinn lives in a multi million dollar estate valued at over 9 million.

Joyce Myers has homes paid for by the ministry for her family as well as herself, and the church picks up the tab on the landscaping, maintenance, etc. She also bought a 23,000.00 marble top commode for herself. To the question some of you asked about "well what difference does it make, it's none of our business what one does with personal income"?

I would answer that all things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial. It is one thing for a business man to spend money like that, and it is another thing for a pastor, teacher, or evangelist entrusted with preaching the Word to live that way. It tells where their first love is, ad those who teach will be held to a much higher judgment in the eyes of God.

Again, as I answered to you before, as well as to others here; the heathen do good works as well, but don't know Christ. If the Apostles went thru hard times and none of them preached a "prosperity" doctrine, then what makes these modern day teachers any different?

I hope I have answered your questions in the best way possible. I will answer your other question shortly.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:58 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Continued to RBB:

Question # 3

"How is this different than those who judge all Christians by the actions of a few, such as those who abuse children, or scream obscenities at soldiers funerals believing it to be the will of God."

For one thing this is different because the world will always take one or two incidents from a so called believer and say to the rest of the world that this is the normal image in all Christians portray. The difference is that we as the Body of Christ are called to discern the sheep from the wolves in sheep clothing. IF a "so-called Christian" is physically, or sexually abusing their child, or their wife, husband, etc, and there is no repentance about the actions, is no true remorse for the actions, and a desire to change course with the Lord leading, then one would have to naturally question if they truly know Christ in the first place. Also, if a "so-called Christian" goes out and bombs an abortion clinic, one would have to question that there is something clearly wrong there as well. Was that person saved in the first place, and were they walking with the Lord daily. IF the answer to the questions are no, then I would believe that the next question is to ask them to repent and truly follow Christ, or you would have to disassociate with them in hopes that the Lord would eventually bring them back into the family again and restore their disobedience as the Apostle Paul exhorts us to do wit those who call themselves brethren an are clearly living in a habitual pattern of sinful living without repentance. Secondly, I would not think that it is very Christ-like, even if homosexuality is a sin to stand at homosexual funerals and hold up signs that say "God hates homosexuals". This is clearly unbiblical, and those that do such things need to repent of their deeds, because they too are teaching false doctrines and giving God a bad name. This is why the name of God is blasphemed amongst many in the world. This is the enemy at work. But I do not fear other Christians judging the Whole Body of Christ for a few Prosperity Teachers, or other "so called Christians" doing things that are clearly anti-biblical, because these Doctrines are false, and I think those who search the Scriptures daily will ask God for discernment on these things, and will exhort those in love who are in this sort of things, as well as exhort them to repent and change their ways. Now if their actions eventually catch up to them for non-repentance, then that is the course of sin. It will eventually catch up to them or anyone else with unrepentant sin in their lives. God is patient and forgiving, but sin takes its course if it is not dealt with promptly, and it will cause havoc in places you never thought, and affect other's around you as well.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:58 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Continued to RBB:

To answer your first question yes. ") Do you think it's right to judge a person (in this case a whole group of ministers) for what another has said, without listening to them."

RBB, what makes you think I haven't heard Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, JoyceMyers, Kenneth Hagin, Oral Roberts, or watched TBN, etc?

I've heard all of them, and I actually read a book by Joyce Myers about the Battlefield of the mind, so if you're assuming I am making unjust accusations about a prosperity "speak things into existence" false doctrine, I am not. I have heard all these guys and as I advised before, I came out of this movement which I atended for a short time while in my 20's and was not grounded in the Word. I also wet to a curch that taught this sort of thing, and I know what they teach. This is why I can say that what they teach is twisted. I always knew there were some "selfish" teachings, especially from John Avanzini, who is BIG on the prosperity name it and claim it junk, but at that time, I wasn't really understanding the whole meaning about contending for the faith and staying in sound doctrinal teachings.

Question# 2:
“Would you like to have this judgment used against you?"

To answer your question, if I had written a book were I taught false doctrine and someone quoted me, and I went to the Scriptures and found out I had taught a false interpretation of God and Scriptures, then Yes, by all means, if that is what it took for me to recall my books, make a public profession of repentance, and ask for forgivness from GOd pulicly, privately, and also fro my congregation, as well as change my erroneous way of teacing, and start teaching sound doctrine to my congregation, I would expect it, and I would pray that both God would convict me about false teacing if I was in that form of error, as well as other believers to exhort me to repent of my erroneous ways, so YES. If I was conducting false teaching; ABSOLUTELY.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

RBB wrote:

"jc4me - I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make myself plain. As far as I can see, none of your past posts have answered these questions. Some of what I'm asking is:

1) Do you think its right to judge a person (in this case a whole group of ministers) for what another has said, without listening to them.

2) Would you like to have this judgment used against you?

3) How is this different than those who judge all Christians by the actions of a few, such as those who abuse children, or scream obscenities at soldiers funerals believing it to be the will of God.

4) How can someone be using the money (82%) of it, in preaching, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans, building churches and still be using it to line their own pockets?"

Conference to Address 'Critical' Need to Reclaim Biblical View of Discipleship

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:43 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

..."Dan Kimball, author of They Like Jesus but Not the Church, conducted interviews on a so-called "pagan" college campus and found most students liked and admired Jesus. At the same time, many had a negative view of the church, saying that Christians and churches have "messed things up."

Dan Kimball is one of the leaders and outspoken voices in the emerging church heresy. you can learn more about him, Brian Mclaren, and other's such as Richard Foster, Rob Bell, Rick Warren on www.understandthetimes.org, and www.apprising.org.

Baptists Poised to Hurdle Divisions with New Covenant

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:34 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

RBB wrote:

"The entire point of this meeting is to push the liberal Christian agenda.

The problem is that their brand of "caring" and following Christ bears absolutely no resemblance to what the scripture describes as acting like Jesus. We are to take care of the poor, preach (although since they are not preaching what's in the Bible I have to wonder what they will be preaching), etc. But we are also to be following the scripture, and doing what it says, not making it up as we go and doing what current human standards say is right instead of God, which is what liberal Christians believe."

Absolutely, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. The emergent church movement with the Rick Warrens of the world are causing splits in whole denominations, while trying to redefine and reinterpret the Bible in liberal/proressive /post modern terms to please the hearers rather than speak the truth in love as the Scriptures exhort us to do. They have a "social gospel" that addresses the superficial issues, but don't get to the core issue - man's sinful state and his need for a Savior and Lord for redemption and forgiveness of sins. We must guard sound doctrine and not just be swayed by every wind of doctrine or twisting of the Scriptures. Remember, in the last days, the Scripturs warn us there will be those who will gather themselves teachers to tickle their ears.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

RBB:

This is why I disagree with Kenneth Copeland and his heretical teachings on Adam being like God. He talks about God’s height, etc, etc; the nerve of this guy to contradict the Scriptures blatantly in his teachings!

"Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )


This is just one heretical teaching taught by Word Faith teachers who subsequently teaches prosperity. I'm sorry RBB, I know you like Joyce Myers, but she is an astute student of Kenneth Copeland and many of her core beliefs stem from his teachings.

In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, an evangelistic work aimed at nonbelievers, Joyce Myers resounds wit the Word-Faith view of Christ’s atonement, and I quote:

“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36)."

As you can see, there is page, book name and direct heretical quotes. The Bible does not teach that latter notion of a "born again Jesus", and neither does it teach Copeland’s position on Adam being the same as God, or God being a certain height. I say if the Apostles that saw the risen Lord did not have a "special revelation" contrary to the Scriptures, and then tell about it, then why should Kenneth Copeland have one?

I tell you RBB, if it doesn't line up with Scripture, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. The Word tells us to contend earnestly for the faith. Look at Jude 3.

Until we speak again, I bid you a good night. The Lord bless you and open your eyes to this deception. And again, I’m sorry you did not understand my position previously.

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

RBB:

Please stop making me repeat myself. I have quoted several posts on this site explaining why I believe that seed faith doctrine is heretical. I previously have gone into great detail quoting Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Myers on some heretical statements they personally made with references to their books. I have already made my position known as to how I think that Benny Hinn living in a 9 million dollar mansion is living an extremely lavish lifestyle with the money from the ministry. I ave alredy said that i disagree with these ministries having leer jets and having layovers in very nice exclusive resorts while on their way to and on their way back from "mission trips" and "teaching trips". I have already given you my position on the evangelist I heard with my own ears when i used to attend a charismatic word faith/seed faith/positive confession church and his heretical teachings. I have already given you my stance on why I don't believe that just cause they help poor people and feed the hungry it is enough to dismiss their error, and false teachings. I don't know what else to tell you. I've quoted 2 of the teachers verbatum, and given you sources where I got the info. One of whom you seem to like (joyce myers) and you are still telling me you don't understand my position. I'm done. If you want more of my position, you may scroll back a bit and read it in context. Thank you and good night. I apologize if I hadn't made myself clear previously after about 4 posts.

Huckabee Upsets GOP Race in S. Carolina

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

mcfbc wrote:

"It's funny, I have been studying my Bible and I can't find anyplace where it says I should vote for Ron Paul. If you could get me that verse reference I would appreciate it.

Thanks "

It's funny too; I've been studying my Bible, and nowhere does it tell me to vote for Hillary or Obama; Gee, why is that?

Can you tell me Scripture and verse on that one mcfbc?

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

RBB:

This is why I asked you what I asked you. Prior to my sending out the second post, this is what you had to say, and the latest 3rd paragraph is the one that concerned me, because it seemed like you haden't read my position, and i had clearly put it on pror to you sending this one out. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but now you know my position on the matter and why I disagree with these word of faith teachers.

Here's the quote from you I was initially responding to when all the misunderstanding started:

"jc4me- You admit that you haven't heard them say it, but you still condemn them. Does that really sound like what you read in the Bible? Does it sound like what Jesus would say? Actually biblically speaking what Jesus would say is "well done thou good and faithful servant enter into the joy of thy Lord"
It seems to me from reading what you've written, that in your past somewhere, you heard a preacher that was very - make you rich - based, and from that you are willing to condemn anyone who is even accused of it, without actually knowing first what they preach or are about. Tell me how is this different from the person who judges Christianity by the actions of an aberrant pastor. How many of us have been lumped in with those crazy "Baptists" from Kansas who protest soldiers funerals, or a pastor from their youth that abused them, or someone who sees a pastor do something bad and then uses it to paint all Christians with the same brush.

I find it totally disturbing that you can't even admit that this ministry is doing wonderful work. They are feeding 11 million people a year. As someone who has been involved with that kind of ministry, I know what kind of work and money we are talking about. 50 fully funded orphanages, fifty, and you still have to try to say something negative. I never did say who this ministry belonged to, but no matter who it is, I still can't believe your reaction.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason that God has blessed this ministry the way He has, is because they use their talents wisely? "

Evolution, Intelligent Design Debate Hits Florida Schools

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

torus:

I have a suggestion for you. When you think your post is going to be 3000 characters or more, such as my highjacking the site, and posting my endless "mumbo jumbo" as you called it, I think you should copy and paste your whole post onto a microsoft word format blank sheet, and then post it in segments with the word "continued" at the top of the post. I hope I've helped you with your dilema.

And may you too become a believing scientist, or atheist or whatever you call yourself. I can only hope that you repent of your unbelief, adn that you come to a Saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and SAVIOR. Have a great day.

Evolution, Intelligent Design Debate Hits Florida Schools

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:22 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

ifeelfine wrote:

"So you think that I have to believe in a young earth to be a Christian? That's what it seems like you are saying. If I don't, I'm a "carnal Christian," is that about right?"

No, ifeefine, this is not the main and only reason. Make sure when you quote me again, you refer to both issues I addressed. The primary one as to why I believe you're a carnal Christian is because of other posts where you side with post modern/liberal/secular progressives in stating your stance on homosexuality and the BIble. You have clearly said you don't feel that homosexuality is a sin, and that a Christian who professes to be homosexual can be a true Christian. This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. In addition, I commented on the young earth/old earth issue when I hear you now talking about how we have all this substantive evindence for an earth that is millions upon millions of years old, i can only conclude that you are in the business of re-interpreting the Bible, and re-inventing your own world view contrary to the Bible. That's all.

Evolution, Intelligent Design Debate Hits Florida Schools

jc4me »

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

torus wrote:

"jc4me - Thanks for hijacking the comments with your rambling quoted pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo."


You're very welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!