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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
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Maybe this is a little off the trail, but Jesus said something about how the world would hate those who followed him. We've been pretty lucky here in the U.S., but things have been shifting. I don't hate practicing homosexuals, but I do hate their behavior, as God hates their behavior. It is a sex addiction that destroys them and those who are exposed to it. It's just like I hate illegal drugs that ensnare people and destroy their lives. I darn well want a law against drugs. I don't hate those who are trapped in their drug addiction, just like I don't hate those caught up in a homosexual sex addiction. There's no hate coming from me. The hate is with those who reject God and those who follow Him. I'm not sure how to communicate this more accurately.
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I think the key here is Haggard's attitude. It is clear from the things he has been doing that he's not ready. It's clear from his leaving the restoration program and defying the wishes of his former church, that he still has an arrogant/over-confident attitude. This worries me more than anything. There are always root causes to addictions, and one of the most common is an attitude of entitlement and self reliance. Both of these are bubbling up right now for him. He feels the urge to lead again. He feels that he doesn't need to hear the hard truths from wiser people who have been walking in freedom. These are serious red flags.
Should he be blackballed from ministry in the future because of his fall? Not necessarily, but I'm really afraid for him that his urgency to resume leadership is fueled by something other than self sacrifice (which is, by the way, the requirement for all pastors).
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I'm not usually one to advocate division and more denominations, but in this case it's pretty clear that there is a line that's been drawn by both sides. I think you do your best to influence the other side, but at some point, you just have to cut your losses. As much as leaders like Hiltz advocate unity and tolerance, they have been pretty bull-headed in dragging the denomination away from it's roots.
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I saw this in Chicago. It is really well done.
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I am there with Dobson too. It is hard not to get depressed when many people who profess to be Christian have already given up on the pro life cause. Look, the only people group that has ever done anything to protest and call for the reversal of Roe v. Wade have been Christians. If we abandon our responsibility to the unborn, we lose, folks. Our nation loses. Judgement is on our nation for this, and make no mistake, it will come if we don't turn from it.
Don't make ignorant comments about Dobson's committment to his principles. He has truly given his life for this cause, and I can name more than a couple hundred people in my circle who would give their very lives if it could bring the end of abortion.
Don't underestimate our committment. And don't give up on this issue. Reducing the amount of abortions is all fine and well, but to us, even one life lost is an unspeakable travesty. Now we're going to get 2, possibly 3 more judges appointed who care nothing about the unborn. That is why Dobson and many of us are struggling to come to terms with. Gang, if we don't stand up for the unborn, who will?
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This is all a smokescreen. Wallis has been trying to hammer this down our throats for some time now. His point is that we should broaden the definition of pro-life to include other social issues that have "equal weight." He is wrong. There is no other social cause that we are dealing with in America that is on par with the murder of innocent life.
Look, the only ones who are actually doing anything to raise awareness and protest the great injustice of our time, the murder of unborn children, are Christians. There are people that have devoted their entire lives to this cause, much like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr did for the cause of civil rights. Now Wallis soothes us with words of gentle understanding, while also calling us to give up the fight for the greater good. I ask, what greater cause is there than protecting innocent human life?
I want to be clear here that if we abandon this cause as the primary injustice in our nation, we will find ourselves in a place we've not been since the passing of Roe v. Wade. We will have completely lost the battle.
Make no mistake, Wallis is not pro-life. Do not accept his new definition. Mark my words, this issue will become the dividing issue in the body of Christ for the coming years.
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I feel particularly sad for the people who, like Ray, struggle with same-sex attraction. There is no sin in the same-sex attraction, but there is sin in giving yourself over to it and acting on it. I commend the many Christians who have fought the good fight, have found accountability, and have truly taken the Word of God seriously when it tells us to "flee the sinful desires of youth" and have not acted on them. I just pray for those who have grown wearing in the fight and are seeing the choice Ray has made. Make no mistake, this is not a case of a man finding himself. It is the case of a man giving up on God.
There are countless examples of men and women, both heterosexual and those who struggled with same sex attraction, who maintained a celibate life, or have repented and stopped acting on their lusts. Why is it so unreasonable for God to require us to stop using our bodies in a destructive and degrading way? Why is it completely out of the question for Ray or anyone who struggles with same-sex attraction to chose abstinence? Lust always promises more than it can provide. Righteousness and patience always pays off.
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I have to say that I am very conservative in my theology, but I really loved the book. I too almost put the book down after one part that particularly challenged my theology, but thankfully I went on to finish the book.
One thing that bugs me about some of the vitriolic comments from people about this book is that they haven't even read it for themselves. There are some really powerful things in that book that people just completely miss because they're so focused on a few misconstrued paragraphs.
Look, I don't agree 100% on the portrayal of God in this book, but you know what? I'm not afraid to hear someone else's thoughts on God. It doesn't get in the way of a truly powerful story of God's love and restoration of a broken man. Give it a chance before you rip it.
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Another reason why everyone in ministry needs major accountability. It is so easy to get sucked into a web of lies, especially when you are in the spotlight and so many people look to you for spiritual guidance. I have to say, though, that this really does speak of serious mental problems. Wearing an oxygen mask...oh man...that's really bad.
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Steve,
It might be normal for unmarried people to have sex with their "partner", but it is outside of God's law. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.-Prov. 14" The bottom line is that when we adjust the law of God to our own preferences, we are basically becoming a law unto ourselves. Why not go all the way and just admit you think you are god. That's what you do when you decide to pick and choose what is right and wrong. Forget all the consequences of sex outside of covenant marriage. The fact is it's sin against a holy God. It's rebellion. Jesus said "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
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"Think your reading far too much into it, I think she was just being gobby and got right up peoples noses... -Steveh20"
I'm not sure what gobby means, but it seems to me that Brand's comments were far more offensive than Sparks's. I think a lot of us Americans take exception to individuals like Brand coming in and telling us how stupid we are and insulting a good portion of the country that believes in pursuing godliness. The U.S. isn't exactly a pretty picture morally speaking, but God help us if we end up half as messed up as England in that regard.
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igh,
Your earlier comment made me laugh. I too think God should give me a bazillion dollars! JK, for those of you with no sense of humor.
Back to the topic, one thing that bugs me about his message is that he preaches prosperity with no preconditions. If you look throughout scripture you will see how prosperity sometimes led Israel down the tubes, and then, when the people started reaping for the wickedness they sowed, they cried out in repentence. This is the key. Repentence. The goal should never be my prosperity, the goal is to be reconciled with God through Christ. When our eyes are on prosperity, we will do anything it takes to get it. Some preach that the cost of repentence is simply having more faith (name-it-claim-it prosperity gospel). Others just say you can have it if you like Jesus (Osteen prosperity gospel.)
I like the song about seeking God's face, instead of his hand.
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Believer,
Cool, that's exactly what I believe. No one is perfect, but as long as there's struggle against the inclination to sin, that's a good sign. It's those that persist in the sin and don't struggle against it anymore that worry me.
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Believer,
just to clarify, are you saying that you know people who are practicing homosexuals or those who have a same-sex attraction? I'm not sure how you can say someone who is actively practicing homosexuality is also living as a believer. Whether it is a hetero or homosexual acts outside of marriage, these are things that pretty much disqualify us from the kingdom of God.
"Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat peopleâ€â€none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." -1 Cor. 9
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Mike2685,
I'm sorry if you were mistreated by people who called themselves Christian. That's not right. One thing I have to take issue with, however, is that there is a difference between what you call hatred coming from the "religious right." While some in this category do have hatred, I do not, and most Christians do not. How could I hate anyone caught in a sexual sin, whether hetero or homosexual, since I've been there too? I can relate with you more than you know, however, I have been experiencing God's continuing grace. When I call hetero or homosexual stuff sin, I don't say it in a condemning way. I say it as a matter of truth. We all have sin in our lives and that's why we all need Christ.
You don't have to believe me, but I am telling you I don't hate you or any one who is a practicing homosexual. All I know is, from personal experience (sadly) that sexual sin will destroy you (and it did for far too many years). I have several good friends who have found freedom from their same-sex attraction and are living in a much better place for it today. They all say the same thing that the temptation never disappears completely, yet they are no longer bound to it as they once were.
All I'm saying is that God has set the boundaries. He does it for our good, not to punish or condemn us. It's to save us a whole lot of pain. I hope you can understand where we're coming from. It's a tough thing to communicate and sometimes it doesn't come across in the way we mean it to.
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Mike2685,
I think the proper thing to do in any circumstance is to love the individual and yet hate the sin. The problem is that sometimes we (some Christians) can come off looking like the bad guy when we call something sin. The truth is, all sin leads to death. Would I want my daughter to make some of the mistakes that Palin's daughter made? Would I want her to chose the gay lifestyle? No. And the reason isn't because I hate sexual sinners or gay people, it's because those types of things lead to a whole host of social and physical problems, not to mention seperation from God. All sexual sin regardless of orientation leads to progressive forms of addiction.
The goal is reconciliation with Christ and restoration of a clear conscience. It's not my job to condemn anyone, but it is my job to tell the truth in love to my family members. Jesus said to the prostitute who he had saved from a mob of religious zealots about to stone her, "Go and sin no more."
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Maybe this comment is out of left field, but I was thinking how much people on both sides of the political spectrum are judging Pallin on her daughter's mistakes. I was thinking about biblical characters like Samuel and Hezekiah, godly men who were pretty unsuccessful in passing on their faith to their kids.
Also, I was thinking about how easy it is to point fingers and give our opinions on how Pallin should have brought up her daughter, or how the government should have educated her about how to avoid pregnancy (as if anyone that age is still unaware of contraception!). The bottom line is that as well intentioned as we can be, people still make bad choices. Would better parenting have helped? Maybe. Would more education have stopped the pregnancy? Maybe. I just wish people would leave her alone and focus on their own side of the street. Teach your kids as best you can and pray like crazy. That's all you can do.
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I really liked Donald Miller's books, but one thing that kind of bugged me was that in his own way he's pretty intolerant of people who have any kind of argument with ways of secular society. It seems almost like he's saying we shouldn't be too pushy with our convictions against abortion, homosexuality, ect. We should just show the love of Jesus and be quiet about anything else. So how come he's trumping for the democratic party and arguing for universal healthcare (which hasn't been working out too well in the countries that have gone that route)? For a guy who is so anti-politics, he sure is jumping in with both feet.
I loved what sommathetes said:
"Why would a professing Christian ask God to help provide health care to the nation via the government?"
It's really sad to me how far the church in the U.S. has fallen. We've caved in to the popular belief of a secular society that has no use for morality and truth. When a person can come to church and openly flaunt their sin without anyone confronting it in love, we have become like the church in Revelation who's lamp has been extinguished.
One thing than makes me sad is when someone says all they need is to believe in Jesus to be saved. That is not true. Do you truly love Christ? Then you will do what he commands. And yes, God has some requirements. Don't tell me you love Christ when you practice homosexuality, heterosexuality outside of marriage, greed, hatred...ect. Trust in God to deliver you from it. Don't embrace it as your identity. I know people who struggle with same sex attraction, yet are living more pure lives than most heterosexual Christian people. It's the work of Christ to remove our character defects. Don't tell me you love Him when you love your sin more.
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JVelez and believer,
My point is more that people my age tend to be disingenuous about their views in favor of not appearing like they're just cookie cutter republicans. I'm no cookie cutter republican either, and yes, I'm independent on how I vote as well. I would say I'm conservative, which is a nice way of saying republican. Maybe it's just semantics, but I feel like the broad category of those who believe in small government, pro-life, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, and a strong defense are essentially republican. I understand why people would distance themselves from the term as it has been applied to people who have been socially permissive and fiscally conservative. There's all sorts of gradations politically. I just wish people would be honest.
On our own we are little more than bits of stone and glass. Together we are the Body of Christ. Holy Bible: Mosaic is an invitation to experience Christ in His Word and in the responses of his people. Each week, as you reflect on guided Scripture readings aligned with the church seasons, you will receive a wealth of insight from historical and contemporary writings.