Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

I look obsessed. Sorry. God bless you all and give peace and comfort.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Chris333: jesus4me=hate&jealousy. you are just ignorant. and I am not your friend. We are strangers I am sure. Your belief in Faith+Repentance=Salvation isn't my faith. My formula is Faith=Salvation. Repentance and good fruit is fruits of faith itself. I am sure you sin no more.

eahaddix:No! I did not waste my time. It never is wasting time when looking up bible for reference. I hope you get in frequent argument over biblical truth with critics. They point out stuff which makes you go back to bible for answer. It is a good exercise. Puts me straight with bible. When this country started people gathered around talking Theology and Politcs my History professor told me that is what made this country great.

Idolatry is a major sin in the Abrahamic religions regarding image. It is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a God.(wiki)

Bible is hard to understand. Needs a lot of reference and explanations. Proper critic will be good too even though I am not getting much of that here.

(Matthew 24:10)At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Even false prophets will quote this. And say we must preach to the whole world and share our love and make sure they don't fall in hell. =D In order to identify those false teachers you have to see their wickedness(war, hatred, jealousy) and know their love went cold. If they still have love oozing out of them, he must be those few who stood firm to the end. What is Love? Learn from Jesus' example.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

I am constantly studying solidifying my faith and correcting my mistakes.

Here is so far what I have learn from this forums. People here are "Radio Show Christians", not worth the title of Evangelical. Master of that universe is Dr. Dobson and his Family Research Council. I thought these were just old grandmas who I love. Gee, was i wrong. I giveup. Can't win an argument against Dr. Dobson. His middle name is Righteousness. I will vote Bush next time. I promise to watch Fox News the righteous news channel, too.

Ingrid Schlueter-Crosstalk Radio Show Host. profile:unknown
Ken Ham-Answers with Ken Ham Radio Show Host. profile:BS, Queensland IT.DoE-UoQ. young earth creationist(earth 6000year old)
Michael Reagan-The Michael Reagan Talk Show Host, Republican Party strategist. Reagan's adopted son. div71,rem75 UAriz(drop out)
Dr.Bob Cornuke-x-cop, costa mesa, ca MA,PhD Louisiana Baptist U. (unaccredited, considered meaningless(wiki))Biblical archaeologist
David Barton-BA, oral roberts U. doctor from Pensacola Christian coll(Pensacola [Christian College] ... has shown no interest in outside approval of any kind. Nor does it advertise its unaccredited status.[wiki]) Republican vice chair of texas
Dr. David Limbaugh-UofMissouri, law. Liberal bashing author(?)Brother of Rush Limbaugh.

I knew Rush Limbaugh was involved somewhere with all these radio.. hehe..

I hear these people put up people's name and address on the web so their extremist friends will call and scare 7 year old girl. http://sliceolaodicea.com/?p=61

Why can't their leaders be from traditional biblical training. Even Dr. Dobson is a pediatrician from USC. Go Trojan!

Rick Warren, BA, Cal Baptist, Riverside. MDiv. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, DMin. Fuller Theological Seminary.

Survey Reveals Which Pastors Get Paid Most

jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

This article is somewhat vague because the salary really has to be relative to the cost of living in the area. And average can be skewed. Median should have been used regionally.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Kenny5682,jesus4me,Chris333:

I just read the sad news. Poor Haitians resort to eating dirt link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080130/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/haiti_eating_dirt

Let's feed them. Please.

Haiti is Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16%, none 1%, other 3%. It's not a Muslim nation and looks like a bona fide Christian nation with 96% Christian.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

2nd Cor 6:14- Read http://www.crivoice.org/yoked.html

You quote bible but you do not know what it means. You judge others but you yourself is worst of the sinners. Aren't you scared to judge others? I am. Especially, people that bare fruits, how do you feel alright to judge them and condemn them especially using bible? Bible that you do not understand.

Read this if you want glorious example of fine missionary work
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,932419,00.html I hope you don't think you folks invented evangelism. Jesus taught us that 2000 years ago.

Paul's message, just like that of Jesus sums up to these (1 Corinthians 13)

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

Isn't modern evangelical fundamentalists too preoccupied with tongue and prophecy?

You have no love, just filled with hatred and jealousness. Get some love. It starts by giving. Give some. I promise you will feel the heart of Jesus touching you.

God bless you and hope I can call you a bro some day.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

jesus4me: You like Matthew and that is funny because I love Matthew, it's my favorite book. It has detailed account of Jesus and I hope to learn from his lessons and examples so I love Matthew.

But how can you be so opposite.

Jesus drank to traitor tax collector. You will hang him.
Jesus talked to woman 5 divorced with live-in boyfriend. You will hang her.
Jesus will cuss at fundamentalist (teachers of law and pharisees.) You love them.
Jesus said to be the peace maker. You love war. Kill the Muslims.
Jesus fed the hungry. You will make sure they don't get fed if they don't believe you.
Jesus was hang by the politicians(both roman and jewish). You use politics for such purpose.

Read Matthew more. I hope you find true Christ and his heart in there and be more like him. I truly wish that nothing more or less. Instead of judging others based on your standards. (Matthew 7:1) Help others regardless of their association. You gotta keep them alive first before we preach the gospel. They are God's creatures just like me. I just got lucky. We did not earn it. I hope you were lucky too. I don't know. I don't smell Jesus off you, just Pharisee.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

We need to clearly understand labels. Before we use it. Definition is different for many groups.

1. Evangelical - by definition, all protestants are evangelical. It was mainline church that spread the good news throughout the world. Its a mistake to claim the word "evangelical"exclusive to modern culturally contemporary church.

2. Fundamentalism - What makes someone fundamentalist is lack of tolerance for any other religion and thoughts. I did not say acceptance, just tolerance of their existence. Still proud to be a fundamentalist? In Jesus time, they would be the teachers of law and pharisees. Jesus cussed at them. Is opposite of fundamentalist a liberal, no. Jesus wasn't liberal. I think he was convervative in his approach but with conpassion. Is that conservatism same as republican? Hell no. Conservative in faith has no link to politics.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

jesus4me: Thanks for detailed-ness even though I was hoping for point to point accusation. You're blaming the world on Rick Warren as if he is mastermind to corrupt the world. hehe.. funny. Long babble is okay but point to point accusation is much easier to communicate and argue over, took me too long to figure out what you are saying.

You are accusing Rick Warren for below. You have three phase of saying stuff. Long Babble, Psychotic scream, and labeling. I don't know what those illerevant quotes from bible were. Which narrow gate did you took?

I- 1. being Pseudo Social Gospel 2. trying to unite Muslims and Christians 3. Promoting free sex all over the world. 4. promote abortions in the world 5. joining secular politicians 6. working with UN the socialist organization while feeding on Capitalism. 7. not helping Israel against Muslims. 8. Not hating Muslims when they are bombing innocent people around the world. 9. trying to unite with Universalist and New Agers.

II- You said if you love someone you make sure they believe Jesus, whatever it takes. If one believe anything other than Jesus your love will prevent that from happening even if it kills him.

III- But your true problem with Mr. Warren is 1. Inclusive Gospel 2. Emerging Church.

My Response.
I- These statements can only come from mentally unstable. Not worth my time.
II- Obiously, you believe in Theocracy. Go to Iraq you will do well building a theocratic nation. God gave us the choice. You want to take it away. Some will go to hell, you can't prevent it. You don't have to spray M16 on him. That's God's job. Let Mr. Warren feed the hungry as much as he can. He won't ask you to contribute, I'm sure.
III- I disagree with you on this about Saddleback but I do agree there is problem like this in modern church. Is Gray Black? You can sit pretty in white but when you work, you get some dirt. I don't think such strong labeling is justified at all.

Based on my reading, I categorize you as ultra-conservative evangelical fundamentalist republican. You have supported Bush and all his righteous acts and think sleeping with Huckabee will make U.S. righteous Baptist nation. But Mr. Warren is Baptist, so you must be extreme right wing of SBC that is upset at Warren for not joining you. It's a completely stupid guess but I get some right sometimes. Vote for Jesus 2008? Jesus is republican? I hear Jesus coming!!

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

jesus4me: So what church do you go to? What denomination? Most of people like you never say what you believe and what you do about your belief. Tell me. I may learn.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

BTW, I do disagree with Rick Warren on his comments. Declining enrollment in mainline church is not a "PROBLEM". Problem I see is 1. Evangelical movement becoming fundamentalists. And is judging others by their own standards and ready and willing to subjugate whoever is not on par with their value. It only makes Religion a tool to subjugate population under "someone's" standard. And they willingly become the dogs of the politic. 2. Focus of evangelism is not the soul but the membership enrollment. All can go to hell but the ones you are evangelizing should be saved that is the whole point of evangelism. But we are not spreading good news, we are merely selling membership to a country club which do comes with hefty price tag to its members. The price tag does not equate to rewards in heaven as they preach in their pulpit. BS. That price tag is only paying for your country club luxury. What if the church has 40 members if 90% of them go to heaven. What if the church has 20,000 members if 90% of them go to hell. Which church was more successful? Big one they say. So you be the judge. I am not suggesting that I am just making quality over quantity argument. Which is better for you?

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I must say. I am not a member of Saddleback Church unfortunately. I live a little too far.

Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

Bashing require content. I know this comment section isn't big enough but do what u can to bring up content. Why? Why? not just bashing. So I can make use of your insight to enrich my judgement. I have been to Saddleback and I do not like Mega Churches but I love Saddleback. Who says Rick teaches Purpose Driven Life instead of Bible? Ridiculous. His sermons regularly is longer than 40 minutes. I have heard enough to say he speaks from bible with authority and with heart of Jesus. If you say otherwise, put up content. He is going Left? What is Left? Giving a damn about AIDS is left? Giving a damn about brothers in Rwanda bad? I call those in Rwanda brothers, learn about them. They are truly amazing brethren. I bet Rick is not only helping those but learning from them as well.

Thousands of Pastors Applaud Huckabee

jonathanjkim »

Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:23 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

maranatha7593: you are a blind man. There is not worst than what you said we do it for those that can't speak for themselves. You are one sick man. So you are suggesting you have been involved in politics for modern slavery in terms of illegal alien in US? Poor who got poorer last decades in US? Innocent dead in Iraq? Can you get a clue? US became worse nation because of your activity in politics. If you went out and fed the hungry, if you went out and cry for the illegals, if you went out and shake the hands of Iraqi, we won't be in a mess that we are in.

Read Matthew 23 carefully and meditate the meaning. It gives me incredible insight on life. Follow Jesus, no other man. Only Jesus is my teacher. Life changes when you realize that. And you can possible stop being a used puppet.

There is one group that Jesus was constantly bashing on and called them vipers. They were the teachers of law and Pharisees. Guess what this snakes are attacking Christians too. Google All Saints Episcopal Pasadena. Read the sermon and THINK why they were attacked.

Thousands of Pastors Applaud Huckabee

jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:19 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

God..

I am physically getting sick. America is descendant of Puritans. It is the embodiment of anger against church of England and other corrupt Christians in Europe. We came here through the hardship for the religious freedom and we guaranteed for last 200 some years that exact freedom. Quakers, Mennonites, even the Mormons and Branch Davidian were allowed to practice their religion.

Now we have so called mainstream protestants ganging up together to take back and turn the clock on us back to Theocracy which is Authoritarianism just like Iraq which we turned into Muslim nation. We will burn the witches and bring back the inquisition and stick our hand in other woman's worm.

Where is the real Christians.. Prior to WWII, German was 2/3 Protestant and rest Catholic. You figure what the "Christian Leaders" did during their time. When the soul is corrupt and damage with hurt. Real Christians go out and mend that. Stop the bleeding and feed the hungry. 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

NBC Show Criticized for Portraying Christians as Violent 'Bible Thumpers'

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

star2: Christ does not say, "Believe in me and be saved" ?

John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned,
Mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Jesus preached "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." That is what we should do. We should repent because the kingdom of heaven is near. But the salvation happens only by Faith which is given, not taken through one's act.

It is core fundamental belief that Christians are saved only by Faith, not by one's doing which repentance is. But Chris333 said, it is NOT by FAITH alone but only FAITH+REPENTANCE.

I can't possible repent my way into heaven. Catholics can? I am too much of a sinner unlike some of you. Only through Faith and Grace of God. I don't repent? No. Repentance is a necessity. Without repentance, I will not be acknowledging his Lordship and Savior. But that don't save me. Only my Faith.

Lesbian Moves Forward in Ordination Amid Debate

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

oh, no..
not the Presbyterians... these things only happen to Methodists... We are doomed...

Exclusivity of Christ Still Controversial Today

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I feel very lucky to be a Christian. (John 3:17) Bible said I was condemned. Not that Jesus condemned me but we were already condemned. Jesus came to bring us into the light. We were already in the dark.

So I am lucky to find the light purely by the grace of God. Do I have answer for holocaust? No. I am not that smart. I read bible and it tells me I am saved by the pure grace of God, not by my doing. So I feel very lucky. Gospel is to let you know, I got lucky and I hope you get lucky, too. Don't make me answer the holocaust issue. I don't have a clue but bible said I need to share my good news. So here. I got lucky and accepted Jesus as my Lord and personal savior and I hope you do, too. All other answers to life, you can find out from the bible because I really don't know either. But I really hope you don't get answers from other teachers or anyone from on this board. Jesus is my only teacher and he is in the bible.

Exclusivity of Christ Still Controversial Today

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

BobCu: Everyone quotes Jesus and claims to be a Christian. I know you read Bible. That's good.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

NBC Show Criticized for Portraying Christians as Violent 'Bible Thumpers'

jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

(Matthew 3)John the Baptist said that the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (Jesus Figtree) Bearing fruit is important but question is what FRUIT. (Gal 5) Paul added that fruit of the spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS, and SELF-CONTROL. Your Bush administration showed NOT ONE of this virtue. You joined Bush and stand in line with him for HATE, DESPAIR, WAR, INCONSIDERATENESS, CONTEMPT, BETRAYAL, ABRASIVENESS, AND SELF-INDULGENCE. Join Politic and you join the devil, includes all Politics. WHY! WHY! Why condemn yourself to evil. Jesus is about YOUR FRUIT, self perservarence, suffering, there is no easy way out which is what you are seeking. Don't volunteer to join the devil and carry their cross.

I will love to call you "brother". I used to use that word casually. There are so few Jesus-like brothers. Hope you find your soul, keep your heart pure and let no devil steer you from heart of Jesus. Especially be wary of those teachers that sent you close to Politic. You don't deserve their cross.