Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Blacksho89, pay attention:

1)The government is in the marriage business in order promote familial stability.
2)They accomplish this through the institution of civil marriage (which is comprised of a package of civil rights).

Read that over again if you have to, because you keep straying off the path.

You asked, "And what business does that state have "promoting" anything other than the ideal?"

Do you mean to say that single parent families do not deserve the same protections as a traditional family?

Whatever an "ideal" family may be, the fact remains the most coveted thing to encourage and protect about families is that they are a loving, supporting, nurturing environment for our children. That can be accomplished by a single parent, a gay couple, or adoptive parents just as well as a traditional setup (and sometimes better).

Thus, there is no basis upon which we can discriminate against one type of family over another. Wouldn't you agree?

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, the definition of holy matrimony comes from God. The definition of marriage in the eyes of U.S. and state law comes from the government.

The thousands and thousands of same sex couples who are now legally married are married, whether you accept it or not.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"Evidently you do not keep up with the news on national and world affairs and what's going on the DC. It is chaos and it will get worse unless God intervenes, we are faced with an enemy form within and that enemy is not flesh and blood but a spirit that controls the majority of our leaders and a handful of the people."
_______

Baloney. WHAT is chaos? What chaos is happening because gay couples and their children are being granted legal familial protections?

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, now you're losing it. What on earth does the American unity post 9/11 have to do with anything? You're sounding very conspiratorial.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Prophet wrote:

"First, I understand that you are not a Christian, so the concept is beyond you.
Second, I never said anything about a war. Maybe I should have been more specific. I will do whatever I can LEGALLY and SPIRITUALLY to keep sin out of our camp. I do not in any way condone violence to promote one's religion.
Third, yes it is how it works in America. I agree. America is slowly becoming a socialistic government. But true Christians work within the laws of our government to promote their views in the same way the homosexuals and atheists do."
_________

1. That is another lie from you. I am a Christian.
2. Please pay attention: I said attitudes like yours lead to holy wars. I did not say you promoted war. Geez, do I have to spoon feed you everything?
3. That is another crock. Our country is doing just fine, despite the gloom and doom fear mongering of pessimistic fatalists such as yourself.

Once again, this is the great difference between us: I am happy to let you practice your beliefs and live your life freely by them. You are not man enough to afford gay people that same consideration.

People who support same sex couples' marriage equality are not "promoting their views." They are demanding that gay people be treated equally as the constitution guarantees.

I've never heard of an atheist who is trying to make other people be atheist too. That is nonsense.

And what does socialism have to do with any of this??

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, allowing gay couples and their children equal family protections under the law can not possibly create chaos, disorder, calamity, or confusion.

It might offend your sensibilities, but then again you would not be required to participate so there's still no chaos.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Blacksho89, gotcha. That is not an idea I'm necessarily opposed to (abolishing civil marriage for everyone) but I doubt it will happen. And until/unless it does gay couples & their families should be included equally.

I do think your view of marriage in general is narrow. Aside from holy matrimony, the state's legitimate interest in marriage is to promote the stability of familial relationships in society. Don't you think that's a good thing? Or at least not bad enough to go out of our way to abolish?

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

forsaltnlight, don't try to slither out of this: you are, with your words and votes and whatever power you do have, trying to compel others to live as you want them to. You claim it is God's will, thus absolving yourself of responsibility. A cheap way out.

No one said you're putting a gun to someone's head. But this entire discussion arose from one group of people (including you) insisting that gay couples who want to settle down and get married not be able to do it. That's what I mean by forcing others to live by your beliefs. And you know darn well that's what I mean.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Blacksho89, you're trying to bait me into this BS about if a gay couple can get a marriage license then surely so should a marriage license be granted to siblings, a table and as chair, a child and a shoe. It's not going to work.

For the umpteenth time, the single change marriage quality folks are effecting is that the existing institution of civil marriage, as governments have chosen to offer it, be extended to gay couples equally with straight couples. That's it.

If YOU want to open a separate movement to be able to marry your mother or a chair or a bird then you go right ahead. That has nothing to do with what's at hand and you know it!

By the way, like so many others here you seem unable to grasp that holy matrimony and civil marriage are two different things. Everything you say about what marriage is to you is correct in the realm of holy matrimony. Nobody wants to take that away from you.

But your notions of holy matrimony are irrelevant to the civil marriage of people who don't share your religion. Do you understand that? It seems like you don't.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, I'm not sure I can discuss with you anymore. When you insist that any other belief and vision of God other than yours is invalid, well you are beyond debate, discussion, reason, or logic. I think that's really sad.

You are going through life as if you, the instrument God created in you, has no worth. How can you insult God by throwing away the beautiful gifts He endowed you with? I'll never understand that. But I'm also pretty sure I will never get through your wall so let's leave it be.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, it's not my goal to upset you. But you are radical in your own way. You speak as if man's civil laws mean nothing when they conflict with WHAT YOU THINK God's laws are. That is dangerous, and scary.

By the way, you say people shouldn't try to earn salvation. It seems to me that's exactly what you do. You adopt the attitude of, "If I just believe as I'm told and trust everything to my understanding of God I will bask in eternal life." How is that different from "If I just fly this plane into a building Allah will let me bask in eternal life"?

In your heart I think somewhere deep down you must know that gay people are not hurting anyone, that their sexual orientation is just one of many harmless facets of who they are. Yet you don't listen to your heart. You set aside that reasoning to clutch to a belief that forces you to treat gays like dirt. THAT is NOT living as God would want us to live.

Trust your heart! Trust the beautiful gift of reason and compassion God endowed you with! Trust it more than anything else! God made you so beautifully that you WILL do the right thing if only you listen to your heart instead of the rule book someone taught you.

Listen to your God-given beautiful, compassionate heart. THAT will set you free.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, why are you trying to obfuscate the simple subject of legal equality?

Equality under the law means: the way you are treated by the government is the same no matter if you are Hindu, Jew, Christian, atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, undecided, whatever.

That's how it works in America.

Anyone can believe and practice whatever religion they want as long as it does not infringe on others or break the law.

What you aim to do is compel people who do not share your religious ideas to live by them anyway.

THAT is why in this battle over legal marriage rights for same sex couples you and your side will eventually lose. Because what you aim to do is unconstitutional. It's just a matter of time.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:00 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"Um....so? I know a lot of "Christians" who believe that Jesus was merely a prophet. I know "Christians" who believe that God literally had sex with Mary."
________

My point exactly! Thank you! So why, why, why do you insist on trying to inflict your belief on the way others live in the secular society we share? You can't do that in America.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Prophet, a question for you:

If your religion unequivacably believes gambling is a sin, would you fight for all gambling to cease for all people, including atheists and others whose religion has no problem with gambling? Just curious.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:55 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Blacksho89, if I may butt in here...

The state where I live will not -- I repeat, WILL NOT -- grant gay couples the same protections, rights, status, and priveleges as married people. Period, end of story. And despite the good news in Iowa and Vermont, most states are still discriminating against gays.

Assuming your Colorado example is true, it's far from the norm and I think you know it. Besides, the relevancy is waning when CO doesn't recognize gay couples in any way no matter what.

I love how anti-marriage-equality people know all the answers about the motives of gay people. Heh, what a crock. I guess that helps them build their case against gays and at the same time absolve themselves of genuine human responsibility for the mean things they say and do.

P.S. Are you suggesting that conservatives want the government in people's bedrooms?? If not please clarify what you are talking about with that. I assumed no one wants the state in their bedrooms.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight -

Oh dear, after a reply like that I don't know what to say. Yes I do.

First, none of that explains why you insist on trying to force what you believe on people who believe otherwise. I think there's a sickness there.

Second, your level of devotion is so far off the charts of normality it sounds exactly like people who fly planes into buildings. That is scary. You will never agree, or probably even understand the connection, but I'm just saying don't be surprised if the world marginalizes your extreme view.

I know your type and sadly the more you are marginalized the more that makes you believe you are one of the few chosen ones who has the strength of faith to stick to it.

Next thing ya know, BAM - you're flying a plane into a building just as gleeful as can be, 100% convinced it's for the glory of God.

Scary.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"I'll stick with following God's design for sex and marriage: a man and a woman."
_______

Great, Prophet, goody for you. Now that you've got your own life taken care of I guess you have nothing better to do that try to force other people to live by your beliefs. Sick. I think you're gonna have to answer for that someday.

That's the difference between us: I'm content to let you live your way. Whereas you just can't help yourself from sticking your nose in gay people's lives. Sick.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight wrote:

"The state should have never had anything to do with theinstitution of marriage to begin with, issuing the license, licensee of a minister, empowering an official to perform a legal marriage. This is clearly a violation of the true separation of church and statet that violation being the wall of separation in the direction in which it was intended. That meaning that the state has no business in the churches business."
_________

You are wrong. The separation is working beautifully. The state has nothing whatsoever to do with church policy over holy matrimony. Likewise, churches should have nothing whatsoever to do with civil marriage (the kind atheists can get any day of the week, mind you).

No problem at all, except for a few religious butt-in-skis who want to control state matters of civil marriage.

Vt. Legislature Overrides Veto; Legalizes Gay Marriage

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight wrote:

"I understand that, but their is a day of reckoning coming and the US constitution will have nothing to do with whether God blesses a person now nor where they will spend eternal life. The only connection the constitution has to God and eternity is whether the people that select leaders make Godly choices or self centered ungodly choices. How it is written or how it is interpreted, or how it is amended has nothing to do with ones relationship to God other than what each individual does to honor God. He will see how every person acts and reacts by the Democratic power they have been given. It could be by a vote or by an executive order or by a ungodly rewrite of a once Godly law. God sees all and man will give an account of every deed. Now if you don't believe in the day of reckoning and eternity, I could see why you put all your faith in the constitution."

_________________

The problem, that you really don't seem to understand at all, is that that's YOUR interpretation of God's word. Many, many, many of us disagree with you.

The way I see it, you're doing a terrific job of living your life by your beliefs, and a horrible job of everything else because you fight tooth and nail to inflict your beliefs on people who clearly do not subscribe to them. Why must you do that?

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

kamaciej »

Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:19 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Prophet wrote:
"No I don't slander the gay community. I speak the truth of homosexual sin."

Prophet, I know plenty of Christians, myself included, who do not believe homosexuality is a sin. (Included are my minister, a friend who is a former Catholic priest, an acquaintence who is a currently-serving Catholic priest, etc. So clergy are very much represented.)

Are you familiar with what the word "truth" means? I don't think you are because your use of it in that sentence indicates that what you meant to say is, "I speak my opinion of homosexual sin."

And your opinion does count as slander, considering the vile things you say about gay folks. You might as well own it at least.