Such a course, provided it's taught in a non-sectarian, completely secular manner should be considered legal. Indeed, the Supreme Court in School District of Abington Township, Pennsylvania v. Schempp stated: "[i]t certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the bible or of religion, w...more

Such a course, provided it's taught in a non-sectarian, completely secular manner should be considered legal. Indeed, the Supreme Court in School District of Abington Township, Pennsylvania v. Schempp stated:

"[i]t certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistently with the First Amendment."

Aside from this, so much of Western history (for better or for worse) was motivated by Christianity. The crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Henry the VIII's divorce, the birth of protestantism, the rise and fall of the holy Roman Empire, etc. Additionally many writers such as Milton make reference to Bible continually in their writings. Such knowledge of this book, from an intellectual, objective standpoint is therefore necessary.

Note that however influencial the Bible may be, I do not believe the Bible is true when it comes to miraculous accounts. Indeed, I think people back than tended to blur the line between truth and untruth, weaving stories of miracles as a way to cope with the capriciousness of life. Additionally, no one should be expected to believe these extraordinary claims without direct observable evidence. Indeed, if the Christian God is truly God, I think we'd have a lot more objective proof of divine interaction rather than being forced to rely on subjective feelings and the writings in an ancient document.less

Accuracy in terms of normal historical events (i.e. wars, buildings, etc.) doesn't imply that the Bible is accurate when it comes to abnormal, extraordinary events such as raising people from the dead, that a loving God exists, etc. Such events are so unusual that nothing short of direct, objective evidence (i.e. seeing God descend from the sky) would prove the Bible right on these claims. ...more

Accuracy in terms of normal historical events (i.e. wars, buildings, etc.) doesn't imply that the Bible is accurate when it comes to abnormal, extraordinary events such as raising people from the dead, that a loving God exists, etc.

Such events are so unusual that nothing short of direct, objective evidence (i.e. seeing God descend from the sky) would prove the Bible right on these claims.

indeed, if God truly loves us (as the Bible claims) I think there would be a lot more objective proof of supernatural activity occurring. Why hide in shadows and the ambiguities of an ancient document?less

@ MaxVeritas Your arguments contain flaws. First, you claim gay marriage should be denied because it's "not marriage." You cite as proof of this that "marriage is between a man and woman," the very thing you're arguing for! This is circular reasoning and thus invalid! Indeed, "marriage" like all words can expand and change over time as societal values evolve. Indeed, marriages used to ...more

@ MaxVeritas

Your arguments contain flaws. First, you claim gay marriage should be denied because it's "not marriage." You cite as proof of this that "marriage is between a man and woman," the very thing you're arguing for! This is circular reasoning and thus invalid!

Indeed, "marriage" like all words can expand and change over time as societal values evolve. Indeed, marriages used to all be arranged, and in some ancient societies incest was quite common. Thankfully, marriage has evolved since than!

Secondly, there's evidence (from mainstream organizations) to suggest that stable gay relationships are no more harmful than stable straight relationships.

Additionally, assuming that gay relationships are somehow more "harmful," can you prove that this harm is the inherent result of being gay itself rather than the result of the underlying psychological dispositions of the parties in that relationship? Isn't it quite possible that being called "sinners" or being denigrated by much of American society (see the recent gay teen suicide cases for examples of this) that gay people tend to have more stress in their lives than straights and thus take this baggage into their relationships?

I'd like to see what the research would say after 100 years of gays being treated absolutely equal in this country in all respects.less

Anyone can claim discrimination against something. A murderer who is convicted could claim that their views are being infringed upon if they are sentenced to prison for their crime. A restaurant or hotel owner could claim that their right to discriminate against blacks is being infringed upon due to the presence of federal and state anti-discrimination laws. Who cares? A balance has to be st...more

Anyone can claim discrimination against something. A murderer who is convicted could claim that their views are being infringed upon if they are sentenced to prison for their crime. A restaurant or hotel owner could claim that their right to discriminate against blacks is being infringed upon due to the presence of federal and state anti-discrimination laws.

Who cares? A balance has to be struck between what's better policy and what isn't. As a result some discrimination is tolerated whereas other types aren't.

In this case, the American Psychological Association, a mainstream, non-religious organization has ruled that conversion therapy doesn't work. On the other hand, a religious fringe group believes it does.

Apple, as a corporation has chosen to uphold the values of a civilized society and go with what the mainstream community teaches. Therefore, they removed an application by a religious organization that encourages gays to do the very thing which has been proven not to work.

As Apple is a private corporation, they generally have more right to do what they want than public, governmental groups. I bet more than half the people complaining here about Apple's decision claim to believe in limited government and letting corporations "do what they want to do." All the sudden this case comes up and they begin complaining the opposite, alleging "religious discrimination."

My response: So what?less

1. Could it be that these people were always bisexual, but due to societal biases did not get an opportunity to realize this until they were older? 2. I think whether someone is born gay or not is irrelevant. Conversion therapy is considered to not work by the American Psychological Association, and hence it shouldn't be encouraged. Thus, sexual orientation is obviously somewhat fixed, r...more

1. Could it be that these people were always bisexual, but due to societal biases did not get an opportunity to realize this until they were older?

2. I think whether someone is born gay or not is irrelevant. Conversion therapy is considered to not work by the American Psychological Association, and hence it shouldn't be encouraged. Thus, sexual orientation is obviously somewhat fixed, regardless.

3. Christian, fringe therapy is ridiculous. Why is it that Christians always invent separate categories for everything and than think that all mainstream institutions are "wrong," or "conspiring" against the Christian viewpoint?less

Clover, I suggest your reread my posts here. I've never said that homosexuals were or weren't born gay. Frankly, who cares? if people want to be gay, and marry someone they love, I'm happy for them regardless. The American Psychological Association has ruled that conversion therapy didn't work. This seems to show that sexual orientation is relatively fixed, regardless of how it occurr...more

Clover,

I suggest your reread my posts here. I've never said that homosexuals were or weren't born gay. Frankly, who cares? if people want to be gay, and marry someone they love, I'm happy for them regardless.

The American Psychological Association has ruled that conversion therapy didn't work. This seems to show that sexual orientation is relatively fixed, regardless of how it occurred.

Also, you are being so illogical it's almost funny. Your posts do convey emotions through the tone and words you use. This is why people write things in the first place, to convey something.

In your case, your posts are emotional and unsupported by any evidence. You know this, and thus are trying to filbuster this discussion by continually asserting blanket statements like I'm "wrong," or I'm "projecting." LOL

Frankly, I really question with your attitude, dishonesty, and careless reading whether you're a real Christian. I may not agree with what DP, and believer have to say but they always provide an explanation and are always respectful.less

Daniel Paul, I think you need to prove your assertion that these large scale, mainstream organizations succumbed to bullying rather than simply reviewing the evidence and reaching a conclusion that Christians such as yourself disagree with. I mean Christians seem to find a conspiracy in any organization that's not affiliated with them. Evolutionists are "anti-God" and covering up the dat...more

Daniel Paul,

I think you need to prove your assertion that these large scale, mainstream organizations succumbed to bullying rather than simply reviewing the evidence and reaching a conclusion that Christians such as yourself disagree with.

I mean Christians seem to find a conspiracy in any organization that's not affiliated with them. Evolutionists are "anti-God" and covering up the data that supports the truth about creation 'science,' the American Pediatrics Association was bullied to support homosexuality, the mainstream scientific community is "lying" about global warming, etc., etc. When does it end?

I think peer-reviewed, mainstream organizations should be presumed honest until evidence is proffered to the contrary. Where's that evidence, DP?less

Clover, you're getting emotionally charged here. Take a step back and breath . . . I offered as proof that conversion therapy doesn't work/gay people can lead healthy/adjusted lives just like straight people the opinions of several mainstream organizations such as the American Psychological Association and the American Pediatrics Association. In contrast, you argue I'm wrong and that homo...more

Clover, you're getting emotionally charged here. Take a step back and breath . . .

I offered as proof that conversion therapy doesn't work/gay people can lead healthy/adjusted lives just like straight people the opinions of several mainstream organizations such as the American Psychological Association and the American Pediatrics Association.

In contrast, you argue I'm wrong and that homosexuality is inherently bad.

I'm waiting for proof, rebutting my evidence. This isn't a negative. I'm asking for evidence in support of your position rather than just attacking everyone who disagrees with you.less

I think it's very important to determine whether something is a CAUSE of something versus merely a CORRELATION with that something. Could it be that the sex diseases are so common in third world countries due to both sleeping around, but also not using protection? Religious groups tend to oppose birth control which would easily prevent such diseases in many cases. Also, as pertains to this a...more

I think it's very important to determine whether something is a CAUSE of something versus merely a CORRELATION with that something. Could it be that the sex diseases are so common in third world countries due to both sleeping around, but also not using protection? Religious groups tend to oppose birth control which would easily prevent such diseases in many cases.

Also, as pertains to this article, what is the implication here with respect to gays? That gays sleep around more and hence have a higher rate of STD's?

Maybe if more people would encourage marriage rights for gays and other permanent arrangements rather than telling them they're being sinful and wrong, there would be less of this behavior.

Again, I think such behaviors on the part of gays are a way of acting out on their societally created insecurities. As gay marriage and tolerance becomes more prevalent in our culture, I'm betting the stats between gays and straights in our country pertaining to monogamy will equalize out.less

Actually, I enjoyed reading Eleanor's posts and I hope she posts here again, if nothing else but to be another voice of reason, challenging religious dogmatism.

Sorry Clover, the burden's on you. The mainstream psychological community has already ruled that conversion therapy doesn't work and that there's nothing inherently wrong with being gay. It's up to you to rebut that presumption providing relevant evidence to the contrary.

@Believer, The bottom line is that environmental responses (i.e. support versus derision) can determine how a given person feels, and hence chooses to express themselves. If someone is being picked on, told they're being wrong, that tends to promote unhealthy traits. If that something can be changed, fine. With homosexuality, the mainstream, non-Christian community has ruled that there's n...more

@Believer,

The bottom line is that environmental responses (i.e. support versus derision) can determine how a given person feels, and hence chooses to express themselves. If someone is being picked on, told they're being wrong, that tends to promote unhealthy traits. If that something can be changed, fine. With homosexuality, the mainstream, non-Christian community has ruled that there's nothing inherently damaging about being gay and that conversion therapy DOESN'T work.

As for the multiple partner example, yes, it's quite possible feeling insecure would cause someone to sleep around, due to not being able to accept love from a single person. Indeed, prostitutes often attribute their sexual openness to feelings of intense insecurity.less

Clover, what do you mean no one is born a homosexual? Can you provide evidence to support your dogmatic assertion?

Mainstream organizations such as the American Psychological Association and the American Pediatrics Association have said that there is nothing inherently wrong with being gay. Indeed, the only reason why being gay is statistically considered somewhat unhealthy is because all the societal abuse and condemnation of their orientation often drives gay people to lead unhealthy lives, have more stress...more

Mainstream organizations such as the American Psychological Association and the American Pediatrics Association have said that there is nothing inherently wrong with being gay. Indeed, the only reason why being gay is statistically considered somewhat unhealthy is because all the societal abuse and condemnation of their orientation often drives gay people to lead unhealthy lives, have more stress, low self esteem, etc. I'd like to see what the stats would be if the playing field was level, and people actually took Lady Gaga's message (as well as the studies from the mainstream psychological community) to heart.

Lady Gaga's song was written to combat the growing number of abuse/suicides stemmed from being picked on for being gay. Read for example the story of Tyler Clementi.

Instead of taking this advice to heart, Fundamentals hold on to their fringe beliefs and than invent positions such as Christian therapists, creation scientists, etc. to support them. Everyone else is just considered "blanketedly" wrong.less

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The American Psychological Association as well as other mainstream organizations have ruled that conversion therapy is bad science and that there is nothing inherently unhealthy about being gay beyond societally induced biases which tend to result in gay people suffering from more stress and anxiety. As Apple's goal should be to remain neutral from religious fringe teachings and support the values and teachings of a civilized society, the Exodus Application should be removed. hide

Believer, If the Bible is true, you'd think God would provide more direct evidence of his existence (appearing in the sky, raising buildings for all to see, etc.) rather than expect people to believe in supernatural encounters described in an ancient book. Kind of cruel to condemn people to hell for failing to be able to take that leap of faith.

I went to this guys website and am now watching a video where he attempts to disprove evolution. All he does is speak in biblical absolutes, without actually defending his propositions. He also makes tons of assumptions, arguing that because the Bible claims Adam is the son of God that there couldn't be any intermediate links between God and Adam (why must the term "son" be considered litera...more

I went to this guys website and am now watching a video where he attempts to disprove evolution. All he does is speak in biblical absolutes, without actually defending his propositions.

He also makes tons of assumptions, arguing that because the Bible claims Adam is the son of God that there couldn't be any intermediate links between God and Adam (why must the term "son" be considered literally?), and that there are no gaps in any of the Biblical genealogies (the hebrew language had no word for extended grandparents and such).

Finally, he claims that every time a baby is born, that a miracle occurs. In contrast, a miracle should be defined as something out of the ordinary from normal events. The frequency of this event proves that however complicated this process of development may be, it is not a miracle.less

The article states: "A Brazilian economist and evangelical pastor has been engaging atheists since challenging them to prove scientifically that God does not exist." Atheists don't have this burden to prove God doesn't exist. Indeed, I assert Christians have the burden of proving that a loving, intimate God who died on our behalf exists in actuality. Burden of proof deals with who must pr...more

The article states: "A Brazilian economist and evangelical pastor has been engaging atheists since challenging them to prove scientifically that God does not exist."

Atheists don't have this burden to prove God doesn't exist. Indeed, I assert Christians have the burden of proving that a loving, intimate God who died on our behalf exists in actuality.

Burden of proof deals with who must proffer evidence for their claims versus who does not. Certain evidence is assumed based on commonality. So for example, if someone claimed they saw a grocery store on the way to work and that person was otherwise known as being trustworthy, most people would value that person's claims, not expecting them to supply a map of their route or what not, proving there was a store there. .

However the Bible describes miraculous encounters with the supernatural, things which are highly out of the ordinary and appear very unusual.

Therefore, Christians must prove that these encounters are true and that Bible was written in a manner unlike all the other books on this planet (i.e. by fallible people). Atheism, meanwhile should be assumed until contrary evidence can be proffered.

Also, evolution is a theory of development of life, not origins of life, as the pastor in this article appears to want to describe it as.less

That's great. The American Psychological Association as well as the American Pediatrics Association have determined that gays can lead healthy lives and there's essentially no difference between a gay or straight person, only environmental stereotypes (most likely propagated by people who think they have a right to force their by-faith, mutually exclusive outdated biblical views on society).

Your argument has been rejected by every single court addressing the supposed strength of the arguments for banning gay marriage. Court have determined that people marry today for a variety of reasons, and adoption is always an option. Additionally, they've noted that many straight couples can't have children. Finally, with population potentially spiraling out of control by 2050, who needs peop...more

Your argument has been rejected by every single court addressing the supposed strength of the arguments for banning gay marriage. Court have determined that people marry today for a variety of reasons, and adoption is always an option. Additionally, they've noted that many straight couples can't have children. Finally, with population potentially spiraling out of control by 2050, who needs people to have more children naturally anyway? Want kids? Go adopt!less