Good point. The Bible never condemns slavery either. Instead it spells out specific guidelines for owning slaves and talks about how slaves should treat their masters and visa versa. Not just once (like the ONE verse about women not having authority over a man) but many, many times in both the old and new Testament. The Bible never says anywhere that owning a human slave is wrong or a sin. Yet...more

Good point. The Bible never condemns slavery either. Instead it spells out specific guidelines for owning slaves and talks about how slaves should treat their masters and visa versa. Not just once (like the ONE verse about women not having authority over a man) but many, many times in both the old and new Testament.

The Bible never says anywhere that owning a human slave is wrong or a sin. Yet that is the popular belief today. So how come we can decide that dozens of verses were just God suffering us because of the 'hardness of our hearts' and that His true intention was that owning a slave is a grave sin (which is what we do believe in todays world) but that ONE verse about women is somehow taken as absolute truth without a thought about God speaking to a stiff-necked and stubborn people in a deeply patriarchal world.

It is interesting how we can essentially ignore dozens of verses about one subject and then cling desperately to one verse about another subject as a Christian nation and think nothing of it.

It is painfully obvious why the world sees us as hypocritical, judgmental, elitist hate-mongers. We give them all the ammunition they need with our own selective and disordered behavior.less

Believer - You said, "And again the issue here is not about the role of the woman but a woman having spiritual headship over a man or men." That sentence seemed to contradict itself. Being a pastor IS a 'role' and the issue here is what the proper 'role' is for a woman in the church leadership areas. Or are you saying she could technically hold the title of 'pastor' as long as she only taught w...more

Believer - You said, "And again the issue here is not about the role of the woman but a woman having spiritual headship over a man or men."

That sentence seemed to contradict itself. Being a pastor IS a 'role' and the issue here is what the proper 'role' is for a woman in the church leadership areas. Or are you saying she could technically hold the title of 'pastor' as long as she only taught women and children? I honestly am not sure what distinction you are making here.

Another question, are you saying that even though the SBC is officially against women pastors that they will accept a Baptist church as part of their national membership even though they elected a female head-pastor?less

Another reminder to be thankful you live in the United States where we have the protection of our Constitution to defend our free speech rights. Something like this cannot happen here. Canada is making a big mistake by allowing this pendulum to swing way too far in the opposite direction. What started as a fight for abortion rights and gay rights is now manifesting into Christian oppression. ...more

Another reminder to be thankful you live in the United States where we have the protection of our Constitution to defend our free speech rights. Something like this cannot happen here.

Canada is making a big mistake by allowing this pendulum to swing way too far in the opposite direction. What started as a fight for abortion rights and gay rights is now manifesting into Christian oppression.

Freedom is about balance. You cannot claim freedom by denying someone else theirs.

Where I live we have a liberal arts university whose students and faculty are mostly liberal/progressive. There is a queer resource center, a women's center, multiple ethnic clubs and a strong fundamentalist Christian club who regularly speaks out against homosexuality and abortion. Students here and there have gotten testy with each other but the college defends and supports all groups. And no one has attempted to make anyone else leave campus or lose their official club status.

If they tried they would fail due to our First Amendment rights.

We are Americans and living free means being able to pursue our own happiness. And at heart we know that means we must let our fellow citizens do the same.

Reading articles like this reminds me why I am so very glad to be an American.less

Add on here to my 3rd grade story; as soon as I walked off campus the kids told a teacher and he got in his car and found me about a mile down the road. He took me home. Just in case anyone was wondering how that ended. My mother transferred me quite a bit as a child because of being bullied. I was periodically put into private Christian schools (when my parents could afford it) and those time...more

Add on here to my 3rd grade story; as soon as I walked off campus the kids told a teacher and he got in his car and found me about a mile down the road. He took me home. Just in case anyone was wondering how that ended. My mother transferred me quite a bit as a child because of being bullied.

I was periodically put into private Christian schools (when my parents could afford it) and those times were the best in my memory in respect to how the other kids treated me. Then again I was also not obviously gay so my harassment issues were about weight and disability. Would the kids and teachers have been as nice to me if they knew I was gay? I would hope so but from what I have seen and heard that may not be true.less

I agree with gayisnotasin. Though I think it inappropriate for a teacher to have that conversation with a student because of the authority of their position. But a student to student or and adult to adult conversation done in such a manner is not harassment or bullying. Harassment and bullying is when they follow you around in groups of 15 - 20 kids calling you names and throwing rocks at you ...more

I agree with gayisnotasin. Though I think it inappropriate for a teacher to have that conversation with a student because of the authority of their position. But a student to student or and adult to adult conversation done in such a manner is not harassment or bullying.

Harassment and bullying is when they follow you around in groups of 15 - 20 kids calling you names and throwing rocks at you (actual personal experience in 3rd grade). They follow you into the bathroom, won't leave you alone and call you all kinds of horrible names.

Consider the difference between the two following examples:

1. One student says to another, "I am a Christian and I believe being gay is disordered and/or immoral.

2. You stinking f@ggot! Your going to burn in hell like you deserve! You people are the reason the Twin Towers fell and New Orleans was almost destroyed by a hurricane! Your sick, twisted and wrong. People like you should be locked up!

The first statement is an expression of personal belief, no more a situation of harassment than if two people were disagreeing on politics. The second is an outright attack that can cause fear and torment for the person receiving it.

I remember vividly being followed by a large group of students throwing rocks and calling me names, following me into the bathroom (half of them anyway) and cornering me in a toilet stall. Saying horrible things and refusing to let me walk away. I was so tormented by them that I literally walked off campus and started walking home (it was over 10 miles away) when I was in the 3rd grade.

It wasn't because I was gay. It was because I was fat and had Torette's Syndrome (it was mild in comparison to some kids I have seen - I twitched and hopped around a lot - bless the Lord I went into remission by adulthood and now you can barely tell I have it). So believe me I am all about wanting to end bullying of ANY kind.

As an older teenager and as an adult I have been harassed/bullied for being gay. But understand it is not specifically gay kids I am worried about. I am worried about ALL kids. I don't want the fat/disabled/different kid harassed any more than I want our gay youth to be.

We have to teach children to respect each others' opinions / backgrounds / families / beliefs / etc in the sense that they are allowed to have them and have a right to feel safe at school no matter who they are or who their parents are. An atheists' kid likely has the opinion that religion is stupid and a hold-over from Neanderthal man. He can have that opinion and even express it politely but he cannot torment another child because of it.

TomG I have had several conversations with people who feel being gay is a sin and have done so without being offended or feeling harassed. As long as we are having a discussion of ideas everything is fine. Start calling me names and/or treating me like I am a spawn of Satan and we're going to have a problem.less

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. You obviously know very little about Darwin's actual work. He was speaking about the laws of nature we see everywhere from the Australian Outback to the Amazon rain forest - the strong prey on the weak. Darwin also spoke heavily about the evolution of man into a being of morality that is the first species on Earth to create moral...more

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard. You obviously know very little about Darwin's actual work. He was speaking about the laws of nature we see everywhere from the Australian Outback to the Amazon rain forest - the strong prey on the weak. Darwin also spoke heavily about the evolution of man into a being of morality that is the first species on Earth to create morality laws as the sign of a higher being.

I am a creationist, though not a young-Earther, and believe Darwin's theories simply point to the evolving physical handiwork of God. Just because I know how weather works on this planet does not mean I suddenly think God never has a hand in things when He wants to.

For future reference, pure Darwinism teaches that mankind has 'evolved' to the point of becoming a moral being with a sense of right and wrong higher than that of the animals. So to make the statement that Darwinists want to 'tack on Christianity' as their excuse to promote kindness to others just shows your ignorance of the subject. Darwinists believe that the idea of being kind to one another is the result of evolving to a higher state of awareness as 'Earthly animals' in communities/villages/etc. It is in the best interest of the community's survival that the members treat each other with respect and kindness, with laws against murder, stealing and lying. Such behavior degrades a society.

Perhaps you are mistaking hedonism with Darwinism. A hedonist is someone who thinks of themselves and their own pleasure/happiness before and above the other people around them. Darwinists believe in the survival of the group and that it is this concept that birthed morality ideas such as being kind to one's neighbor and anti-murder laws.less

Skepticism: I agree with you completely. I personally believe that overweight kids get more harassment then even the gay kids do. I really wish these anti-bullying laws were including the specific statement of weight harassment. In the end what we want to accomplish here is a safe environment for ALL children in the school system. You would be extremely hard-pressed to find someone who thinks r...more

Skepticism: I agree with you completely. I personally believe that overweight kids get more harassment then even the gay kids do. I really wish these anti-bullying laws were including the specific statement of weight harassment. In the end what we want to accomplish here is a safe environment for ALL children in the school system.

You would be extremely hard-pressed to find someone who thinks religious children should NOT be protected specifically under anti-bullying laws. Yet the amount of people who want to throw gay kids and/or their parents under the bus is absolutely shameful in a supposed Christian country.less

4timesayear and hyperion overseer - I bet you $100 I can make a much larger and more convincing secular argument against Christianity than you can about gays. 1. Proven fact that most child molesters are religious fundamentalists (actual religion varies). 2. Proven fact that almost all wars throughout history and even today are started because of religious differences. 3. Proven fact that mo...more

4timesayear and hyperion overseer - I bet you $100 I can make a much larger and more convincing secular argument against Christianity than you can about gays.

1. Proven fact that most child molesters are religious fundamentalists (actual religion varies).
2. Proven fact that almost all wars throughout history and even today are started because of religious differences.
3. Proven fact that most 'hate crimes' are committed by people who consider their victim to be immoral and/or against their God somehow. (Jack the Ripper is a good example)
4. Gay history has very little blood on its hands and in the instances that it does it can be seen as self-defense situations (Stonewall). Religious history has an enormous amount of blood on its hands be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. You don't see gay people running about in large armies forcing their lifestyle on other people through violence and military oppression.
5. I would fully expect a school to protect a muslim kid from being harassed by peers with other religious beliefs as would you. Regardless of your personal views about the morality or validity of their religion. All we are asking is the same in return for our kids. I am more than willing to protect your kid yet you are unwilling to protect mine.

I find it just insane that you people are flipping out about whether or not a teacher can pass moral judgement on the gay lifestyle freely to whomever they wish - their students or fellow teachers - but seem to have no problem with the idea that a public teacher cannot pass judgement on other religions in the same way.

If this was really about being able to freely express your own faith as a teacher to your student then you would be fighting for the right to preach to children of other religions. It is supposed to be about saving souls remember? Yet you seem fine in the idea that a Christian teacher cannot pass judgement on an Islamic student but not the gay student? Or the student with gay parents?

To me that says you are more worried about passing judgement than saving souls.less

I would like to remind you that gays are by far not the only ones who practice this kind of intimate behavior, it is very popular in the straight world as well. Also, it is very unsanitary and puts a woman at very high risk for cervical cancer to have sex during their period. Proven medical fact. I happen to know many straight couples will ignore that and do it anyway. I also know first hand...more

I would like to remind you that gays are by far not the only ones who practice this kind of intimate behavior, it is very popular in the straight world as well.

Also, it is very unsanitary and puts a woman at very high risk for cervical cancer to have sex during their period. Proven medical fact. I happen to know many straight couples will ignore that and do it anyway.

I also know first hand that being a lesbian puts you at much LESS risk of disease and medical issues because they do not sleep with men. Medical reality is that women who tell their doctors they are strictly lesbian are recommended for LESS annual pap smears.

I also know first hand that there is a very large segment of the gay male population that does not enjoy or participate in backdoor intimacy.less

It will protect Christian children who should be able to express their beliefs in a respectful and self-affirming manner amongst their peers. Teachers are not parents or preachers and already are required by law to not preach to their classroom. It WILL protect a teacher in situations with other teachers, administrators, etc. However any teacher who attempts to pass along religious-specific morali...more

It will protect Christian children who should be able to express their beliefs in a respectful and self-affirming manner amongst their peers. Teachers are not parents or preachers and already are required by law to not preach to their classroom. It WILL protect a teacher in situations with other teachers, administrators, etc. However any teacher who attempts to pass along religious-specific morality ideas (gays are immoral, unmarried parents are immoral, Islam will get you sent to hell, etc) are in violation of the law as they have authority over that child and can influence them greatly in such a manner.

Example: Would you insist that an atheist teacher be fired just for being atheist? I would hope not. However if that teacher uses the classroom to berate the belief in a higher power they should be fired. There is a very big difference between these two following statements:

1. There are several different religions in the world and this is what they are......

2. There are several different religions in the world because man before modern science was trying to explain their world. In truth there is no God.

A specific gay teaching example:

1. There are all kinds of families and relationships in this world. Our world has straight people, gay people, married people, unmarried people, some kids have two sets of parents due to divorce (biological with step-parent), some kids are raised by older siblings, some by grandparents, some by two moms or dads. (There is nothing sexual about that statement in the eyes of a child.)

2. There are all kinds of families types in the world but the only moral and normal kind have your real mother and real father. Everything else (or even just specifying gays) is unnatural and immoral.

See the difference?less

It does in a school setting. As a mentor and possibly beloved by the child, expressing ones personal beliefs beyond possibly a simple statement of "I am personally Christian" can effect the child as they yearn to emulate the one they admire. A teacher is supposed to be just that, a teacher. Not a moral authority - that is what pastors and parents are for. A teacher is supposed to teach facts n...more

It does in a school setting. As a mentor and possibly beloved by the child, expressing ones personal beliefs beyond possibly a simple statement of "I am personally Christian" can effect the child as they yearn to emulate the one they admire.

A teacher is supposed to be just that, a teacher. Not a moral authority - that is what pastors and parents are for. A teacher is supposed to teach facts not morality.

It is like a quote I once heard, by whom I cannot remember; science tells us what we CAN do. Religion/morality/etc tells us what we SHOULD do.less

lpepperw Also, speaking to an 8 year old about a man and a woman falling in love and getting married does not make that kid think about sex. Saying the same thing about a same-gender couple is not going to make them think about sex either. So no loss of innocence happens just because you tell a child I exist. It is only the adults who equate being a homosexual with automatic thoughts of sex. The c...more

lpepperw Also, speaking to an 8 year old about a man and a woman falling in love and getting married does not make that kid think about sex. Saying the same thing about a same-gender couple is not going to make them think about sex either. So no loss of innocence happens just because you tell a child I exist. It is only the adults who equate being a homosexual with automatic thoughts of sex. The child would hear "these two people love each other and got married". It's the straights with anti-gay opinions that jump automatically to thoughts of sex (which is why so many of you cringe when even saying the word "gay").

To be a homosexual means that if I were in an accident and became paralyzed from the neck down and completely incapable of intimate relationships I would STILL be gay. It is not a bedroom act. It is a state of being. Very big difference.less

lpepperw It is not important and is highly inappropriate to express ones personal views on homosexuality, validity of differing religions or other varied moral questions that are best left to the parents. Does that mean children should not be taught about different religions and cultures from a non-committal teacher? Course not. That is what school is for. Just because your kid goes to school a...more

lpepperw

It is not important and is highly inappropriate to express ones personal views on homosexuality, validity of differing religions or other varied moral questions that are best left to the parents. Does that mean children should not be taught about different religions and cultures from a non-committal teacher? Course not. That is what school is for. Just because your kid goes to school and learns about Judaism or Islam or Christianity is not going to make them one of these nor does it condone a teacher giving an opinion on any of these. Gay issues are the same way. To deny we exist is just denying reality. Teachers teach reality. Parents teach morality. Know the difference.less

"Although Hazen said humanists have no business interpreting the Bible, he concluded that the ads may have some resonance due to the biblical illiteracy among Christians today. Some Christians may see these ads and think, “Yeah, we have to be more tolerant, open or good,” he said." Meaning what? That if they knew their Christianity properly that they would realize that they must remain into...more

"Although Hazen said humanists have no business interpreting the Bible, he concluded that the ads may have some resonance due to the biblical illiteracy among Christians today. Some Christians may see these ads and think, “Yeah, we have to be more tolerant, open or good,” he said."

Meaning what? That if they knew their Christianity properly that they would realize that they must remain intolerant, closed and not-good to those they view as enemies and/or sinners? If someone is thinking these things as a Christian then they obviously already feel elitist or seclusionist in their faith. They already take issue with how intolerant some positions are.less

I have not had much exposure to Joel Osteen. What I know of him I have either read in the media or saw an appearance/interview that he performed. Though I have never heard him preach in the traditional manner, I really like what I have heard him say. A friend of mine once said that standard practice of sitting every Sunday listening to messages of sin, end of the world, hellfire and lists ...more

I have not had much exposure to Joel Osteen. What I know of him I have either read in the media or saw an appearance/interview that he performed.

Though I have never heard him preach in the traditional manner, I really like what I have heard him say.

A friend of mine once said that standard practice of sitting every Sunday listening to messages of sin, end of the world, hellfire and lists of 'thou shalt nots' was not only counter-productive to leading a Christian life but also completely masochistic. Your going to think about porn if you talk about it all the time. Such every-Sunday sermons that focus on sin, death and the cross focuses on these things and ensures the audience thinks on these things.

To preach love, hope, life and defeat of death is focusing on what Jesus wanted us focused on. The Good News.

Instead of spending every Sunday thinking on how sinful and/or weak we all are, try thinking about how wonderful it is to be a child of the living God! Of the inheritance! Focus not on a hopeless quest to make yourself perfect - instead focus on who your going to show God's love to next!

Joel Osteen is a fantastic shepherd. May the Lord continue to bless him and his wife.less

Waltman, That was beautiful. Something I learned about living in service to God means being where we are and shining as bright as we can with the love God feels for His children. I think you already live a life of loving people by preaching, writing, missions, etc. We can love those we work with, see at the store/coffee house everyday, even just a warm smile as you pass on the street. We pr...more

Waltman,

That was beautiful.

Something I learned about living in service to God means being where we are and shining as bright as we can with the love God feels for His children. I think you already live a life of loving people by preaching, writing, missions, etc. We can love those we work with, see at the store/coffee house everyday, even just a warm smile as you pass on the street. We preach by sharing our faith with those who wonder what put that smile on our face or why we do the things we do. You just wrote here and touched countless lives belonging to people you have never met.

As for missions, I am spending my Thanksgiving Day volunteering for a free meal in our main local park for homeless, low-income or whoever wants to come and enjoy a free meal with their community.

We serve by living, loving, working and playing with God on our heart. No matter where we are or what we are doing. As willing vessels, God can use us in ways we don't even realize that touch someone's life at just the right time.

Your job IS to love people and be a light for them. Engineering is just what you do to make money.less

Teachers, coaches, guidance councilors or anyone else involved with children have a higher standard that they must adhere to because of their position as authority figures in the life of other people's children. As such it would be highly inappropriate and completely illegal for a Christian teacher to tell a child who has been raised pagan, jewish, islamic, etc that their religious views are wrong...more

Teachers, coaches, guidance councilors or anyone else involved with children have a higher standard that they must adhere to because of their position as authority figures in the life of other people's children. As such it would be highly inappropriate and completely illegal for a Christian teacher to tell a child who has been raised pagan, jewish, islamic, etc that their religious views are wrong or that they and their parents are in danger of hell. Talking religiously about gay issues is the same thing. I do not see how anyone in these professions would be any more limited in their ability to express their religious views than they already are.

We again have a Straw Man argument coming from the religious right as a smoke screen to protect their selfish desire to pass judgement on someone else's life and someone else's kid. I was not noticeably gay as a child but I was obese and caught absolute hell from my peers because of it. I do agree that obesity should be specifically included. However giving nothing more than a blanket statement without examples is ridiculous and would make the law so vague it would be useless.

As a Christian teacher in a public school environment you cannot tell a Wiccan child that they are a sinner. As a Christian teacher in a public school you cannot tell a gay child that they are a sinner. If being able to tell whatever gay person you come across that they are sinners is so very important to you than I recommend finding another job or teaching in a private religious school.

Those who disagree with me should ask themselves this question: Why is being able to express your personal views about homosexuality to a child so much more important to you than being able to tell any child not raised Christian about Christ? We already follow laws to that effect in respect to witnessing in such a setting. You already cannot witness about Christ as a teacher. Is it really such a difference not being able to express the idea that gays are sinners? How does this effect religious freedom as a teacher any more than is already practiced?less

I never said they were ok. I was stating the opposite. I am in agreement with you that Islam is a dangerous religion led by a false prophet. It is obvious that Sharia-ruled countries are the modern day 'Nazi's' as they would gladly eradicate all other if given the chance. What I am saying is that the Conservative Christian voters are so overly obsessed with gay people that they are doing t...more

I never said they were ok. I was stating the opposite. I am in agreement with you that Islam is a dangerous religion led by a false prophet.

It is obvious that Sharia-ruled countries are the modern day 'Nazi's' as they would gladly eradicate all other if given the chance.

What I am saying is that the Conservative Christian voters are so overly obsessed with gay people that they are doing things like "finding common ground" with cult-like religions including Islam. What is that common ground? Not theology, obviously. It is issues like gay marriage.

What I am saying is that the modern 'conservative voter' seems more worried about gay people than Islam's influence or the spread of Sharia laws.

When asked the question, "Who would you rather to have as a neighbor, a secular gay couple or a Sharia-law-following Muslim group?" I fear that many Christians today would embrace the Muslim over the gay, to their own peril, because they for some strange reason are more afraid of gays than Muslims.

What lie exactly are you accusing me of? Perhaps you misunderstood my post? It was very anti-Islam and as our resident promoter of anti-Islam rhetoric I would assume you would agree with at least part of my post.less

Hate to break it to you Katharina but the people this article is talking about would vote in Saddam Hussein if he ran an anti-gay campaign. Case in point: Uganda is one of the most evil regimes in the world, living under some of the most heinous sharia-like laws out there. Yet the religious right sends leaders over there all the time to praise their 'moral values' because the country wants to e...more

Hate to break it to you Katharina but the people this article is talking about would vote in Saddam Hussein if he ran an anti-gay campaign.

Case in point: Uganda is one of the most evil regimes in the world, living under some of the most heinous sharia-like laws out there. Yet the religious right sends leaders over there all the time to praise their 'moral values' because the country wants to execute gay people.

Didn't you know that absolutely EVERYTHING comes second to fighting the gays? Why do you think there is an article on CP today talking about 'Christians and Muslims gather to build a common future"? See they can agree on things like abortion and gay rights so lets just ignore the fact that Muhammad was a child molesting war monger who hunted down Christians and Jews because these people will fight gays with us.

The religious right's obsession with fighting and hating gay people is going to do one of two things: See the downfall of the Evangelical right as has happened in the UK and Canada - or - will see the downfall of this country into a Nazi-like era with a dictator touting 'moral values' just like Hitler did.

Hitler started his whole shebang by going after gay people.less

Mike: You pretty much summed up this country's problems in one sentence. The Religious Right would vote in Hitler if he promised to get rid of gays. (which is exactly how Hitler came to power, btw) It's a sad reality that this country suffers right now. Evangelicals are sending a very dangerous message to the rich, elite, war-mongering fat cats that would see the abolition of Social Security, M...more

Mike: You pretty much summed up this country's problems in one sentence. The Religious Right would vote in Hitler if he promised to get rid of gays. (which is exactly how Hitler came to power, btw)

It's a sad reality that this country suffers right now. Evangelicals are sending a very dangerous message to the rich, elite, war-mongering fat cats that would see the abolition of Social Security, Medicare, federal student loans, publicly funded schools etc.

The message is this: We don't care what you do to this country or what wars you get us into or who has to starve or die from lack of government-funded social programs as long as those evil gays are kept as far in the closet as possible.

Out of one side of your mouth you claim you want smaller government that stays out of the common man's life. On the other side you speak of government regulating who people love and regulating the everyday lives of those who love the same gender.

"I want a small government for me and a dictatorship for you."

The voting block that votes 'moral values' first and ignores everything else about a candidate sets this country up for failure. It allows immoral and evil men to rise to power because they know that pandering to your fear of gays gets them elected. A politician could be Ted Bundy and you people would vote for him if he ran an anti-gay campaign.less