Pastors Test Expanded Hate Crimes Law

mathetes »

Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:39 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 2

Homosexual Man » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3
JehovahNissi wrote: "PUT HOMOSEXUALS TO THE SWORD"

Hman, it seems like you accuse someone of lying every day, but you know I caught you in this lie about 5 days ago and pointed out to you that in JN's original post she was quoting someone else's article + that you intentionally omitted the question mark in the article's title. You tried to make it seem JN said those words, but you got caught lying.

Yet here you are spouting the same lie again! Have you no shame, man? It seems that in order to make Christians look bad, you will do most anything including lying repeatedly. No doubt you'll deny it and try to play the victim, but you owe JN an apology. Be an adult, stop lying, and apologize.

Gay Marriage Supporters Threaten to Strip Churches of Tax Exemption

mathetes »

Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:49 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

"Frankly our side is extremely polite, docile, and peacemaking compared to your side"

Wow, and all this time I thought Norman and Mickey were on your side.....

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

You said, "Note that they do assume that other vague words mean homosexuality (when in fact they don't)"

If you are correct, then the distinction they made disappears. But you still want us to believe what they said.... after you said they were wrong.

Uh... ok, sure, whatever you say.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Let's see if I heard you right:

The problem with those conclusions is that in a passage like 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul distinguishes between those who commit porneia (NIV "sexually impure") and "homosexual offenders."

"When Paul speaks of sexual sins he often uses porneia to refer to sexual intercourse of a male and female outside marriage and then uses the word akatharsia ("uncleanness, impurity") to refer to homosexuality (2 Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Colossians 3:5, Ephesians 5:3,5). So it is not an established fact that porneia also refers to homosexuality."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Note that they do assume that other vague words mean homosexuality (when in fact they don't)"

You say they are wrong about Paul's word for homosexuality, so wouldn't that mean that Paul's distinction between the two words is wrong too? You say they are wrong, but you want us to believe what they are saying. Right.....

You can't have it both ways.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Simple answer? No, let's run around the bush again and again: Jesus did say that word, Jesus didn't speak that language, etc.

The early church since the gospels were written accepted those words as being said by Jesus, but you want to argue whether He said them or not.

Forget it.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Ok, so when Jesus referred to porneia (illicit/illegal sexual intercourse), to what law was He referring?

A simple question awaiting a simple answer.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Daniel Paul wrote: "Some of the most highly educated people in the areas of greek and hebrew agree this is what it means. Do back up your point or be branded a discommodious poster."

Mickey responded: "No they don't."

How silly of Drs. Bauer, Gingrich + Danker to think they know more than Mickey. After all, all they have are terminal degrees + decades of experience with classical + NT Greek. On the other hand, Mickey has... uh... wait... no, sorry, he does't have anything to compare to that, nor does he have any evidence to support his arguments.

Sorry, no evidence, no debate. Daniel described you well: "a discommodious poster."

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Hman wrote:
"LOL, in other words, no, you have never "shown" what you keep claiming you have "shown."
You have merely stated your opinion without demonstrating anything.
You repeatedly claim that your opinion constitutes "proof."
---------
Thanks for proving you never even bother to read our posts; instead, you just spout your assumptions and opinions, never offering any evidence to support your views.

From my original post below (1:02 p.m.):
pornēia = prostitution, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse (definition from B-G-D’s Grk-Eng Lexicon of the NT, but also used to refer to any kind of illegal intercourse by classical Greek authors such as Philo, Cephalio, and others)

That was actually the second time (at least) that I've posted that to you. That's not my opinion; that's the definition from Bauer-Gingrich-Danker's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Classical Literature. How foolish to think you know Greek better than the scholars who wrote the dictionary!

That ok, dismiss the evidence without producing any evidence to support your opinion, and attack the messenger - you've shown you really don't want to learn anything; you merely seek approval for what you do ad to applaud others who share I this sin. Thus the scripture in Romans 1:32 is fulfilled.

Good night. May God have mercy on you.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:09 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

Hman: "Would you mind giving a quick recap? Where did Jesus state that by the word "porneia" He meant what you are claiming?"

Why, are you going to listen to God’s Word this time? Why should I bother? Whenever I show you anything from the Bible that goes against what you want to believe, you immediately dismiss it as:
A. "Jesus never said that"
B. "Even if Jesus said it, He didn't mean it that way"
C. "Even if Jesus said it, He said it in another language"
D. "Even if Jesus said it, the gospel author did not preserve it correctly"
E. "Even if it's in the Bible, that's not what it means"
F. "Even if it's in the Bible, what about those books that aren't in the Bible?"
.... and so on.

So what's the point? You want to justify your sin, so you'll disregard the negative things the Bible says about a man lying with another man, you'll twist other passages into being approving of homosexual behaviors, and you'll attack anyone who speaks biblical truth while playing the victim. Romans 14:22b says, “Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” If you want to approve and encourage what God has called sin, all I can say is, may God have mercy on you.

We've been over this enough; you've heard the truth but rejected it. If you want to drop it, fine. But if you insist on proclaiming as good that which the Bible says is immoral, I will be here, as will a bunch of others who stand strong on the Word of God.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:48 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

You came on a Christian forum and proclaimed that homosexual behavior is approved by God, that Jesus was homosexual, etc.

I came to this web site to read articles about Christianity and joined the discussion to correct absurd ideas. We are all called to bring out lives into accordance with God's Word. If you will not accept help with understanding what God's Word says, that's fine, but if you will not return to orthodoxy, at least stop spreading heresy.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:26 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

Hman,
[HMan] Mathetes, in that example you find a way to excuse a simple declarative statement from Jesus that you disagree with.

[M] I don’t disagree with anything Jesus said. Where did you get that idea? I am trying to explain God’s Word to someone who does not understand it. I've studied rabbinic argumentation: lesser to greater, greater to lesser, etc. Have you? Are you so stubborn you won’t accept someone trying to help you understand?

[HMan] Yet in the same post, you require your reader to agree with you on an untenable scenario, that Jesus spoke in Greek to a Jewish audience:

[M] Did you forget that a majority of Jesus’ disciples were also from the Galilee? They all spoke Greek as part of daily life.

[M, orig. post] "What is you evidence that He NEVER spoke in Greek?"

[HMan] AND the reader must also agree with you that He meant not the everyday interpretation of a Greek word, but an expanded definition that is required in order for you to justify browbeating gay people.

[M] Nice dodge. Rather than present any evidence, you attack your opponent. Sweet. As I have shown you, many authors including Jesus, Paul, Philo, and Cephalio used the term porneia in its REGULAR SENSE. You are the one creating a new, narrower meaning for the word porneia, again with no evidence to support your new meaning.

[HMan] You require not just one but two steps of convoluted reasoning to defend your hostility. You are mistaken. Just drop it. You will be so much happier when you realize that God is not hate. God is love.

YOU really should give it up: the lies, the homosexual activity, all of it. You're making up stuff to justify your sin, instead of accepting God's truth and repenting. God is love: He loves sinners, and God hates sin. These two truths are both taught in the Bible. The sooner you return to God – confess your sin, ask for forgiveness through Jesus – the better.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:53 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

Delight,

I did not see your answer when I began composing mine, but thank you for saying it more eloquently that I did. God bless you, sister.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:51 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

Hman wrote:
"You are obsessed with an irrelevant detail."

Well, you can call the truth an irrelevant detail... oh wait, you do, every time you claim the Bible does not mean what it plainly says.

"If Jesus said the sentence at all, He said it in Aramaic, not Greek."

You can perhaps prove Jesus spoke Aramaic on three occasions, but the rest of Jesus' words are recorded in Greek. What is you evidence that He NEVER spoke in Greek? Jesus was, after all, from the Galilee, the most Greek-influenced area in all of Israel.

"He *did* specifically say that you are obliged to hate your wife and children if you want to be His disciple. *That* phrase does not depend on a Greek ambiguity, but you are not browbeating heterosexual husbands and fathers into despising their families."

No, that phrase relies on a rabbinic method of argumentation. God said the same thing in Malachi 1, where God said He loved Jacob but hated Esau. The difference between the love God showed to both men was so great, it appeared that He hated Esau.

"Well guess what? You're doing the same thing to us. What you are writing here is sociopathic."

What I'm doing here is opposing anyone who would twist God's truth into a lie. What you are writing here is doing just that.

Gay Marriage Supporters Threaten to Strip Churches of Tax Exemption

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:10 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

Good morning, all. Since some people continue to insist that porneia refers only to prostitution, here is the etymology of the word from its earliest root:

praō = to traverse or cross over, as crossing over the sea

pernēmi = to export for sale, esp. captives sold overseas for slaves

pornē (also written as porna) = prostitute, because often female slaves were used for sex

pornos = male prostitute (same word w/masculine ending), but in NT it is translated as a fornicator, one who practices sexual immorality of any type

pornēia = prostitution, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse (definition from B-G-D’s Grk-Eng Lexicon of the NT, but also used to refer to any kind of illegal intercourse by classical Greek authors such as Philo, Cephalio, and others)

So, to say that porneia only means prostitution is to artificially limit its range of meaning, that is, to make it mean something narrower than how authors and readers of the day understood it. Porneia = fornication or illegal sexual activity in general, of which prostitution is only one small part.

The case in 1 Corinthians 5 was correctly described by Paul as porneia, a forbidden/illegal sexual relationship in which money played no part. In 1 Cor 7:2, Paul wrote: “Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.” Paul wrote this not to ban prostitution only, but any sexual activity outside the marriage of one man and one woman.

To continually claim that porneia = prostitution only is to ignore the evidence that it means any illicit sexual activity outside of the marriage of one man and one woman.

Mickey, I don't expect you to ever admit it, but Daniel Paul, believer, and these others are correct. You cannot show where God ever said homosexual activity was blessed by God, so you just go on the attack. Everyone knows ad hominem attacks are the last throes of a weak argument.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

Good morning, all. Since some people continue to insist that porneia refers only to prostitution, here is the etymology of the word from its earliest root:

praō = to traverse or cross over, as crossing over the sea

pernēmi = to export for sale, esp. captives sold overseas for slaves

pornē (also written as porna) = prostitute, because often female slaves were used for sex

pornos = male prostitute (same word w/masculine ending), but in NT it is translated as a fornicator, one who practices sexual immorality of any type

pornēia = prostitution, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse (definition from B-G-D’s Grk-Eng Lexicon of the NT, but also used to refer to any kind of illegal intercourse by classical Greek authors such as Philo, Cephalio, and others)

So, to say that porneia only means prostitution is to artificially limit its range of meaning, that is, to make it mean something narrower than how authors and readers of the day understood it. Porneia = fornication or illegal sexual activity in general, of which prostitution is only one small part.

The case in 1 Corinthians 5 was correctly described by Paul as porneia, a forbidden/illegal sexual relationship in which money played no part. In 1 Cor 7:2, Paul wrote: “Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.” Paul wrote this not to ban prostitution only, but any sexual activity outside the marriage of one man and one woman.

To continually claim that porneia = prostitution only is to ignore the evidence that it means any illicit sexual activity outside of the marriage of one man and one woman.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:38 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

Mickey, this exchange caught my eye:

(DP) "I am a sinner saved by grace found in the blood of Jesus. I have died to self and live the life which Jesus laid down on the cross. I serve others on behalf of the Lord with the standard of loving my neighbor as myself."

(Mickey) "Copied and pasted that from the fundie manual???"

(DP) "Actually, it would be from the Bible. Is that a fundie manual?"

(M) "LOL it's not from the Bible. What nonsense."

Mickey, the only thing nonsensical is your biblical knowledge. Each one of DP's statements is practically a paraphrase of a Bible verse. Observe:

(DP) "I am a sinner saved by grace found in the blood of Jesus (Acts 15:11). I have died to self and live the life which Jesus laid down on the cross (Gal. 2:20). I serve others on behalf of the Lord (2 Cor. 5:20) with the standard of loving my neighbor as myself (James 2:8)."

Anyone who compared those verses with DP's statements would see the similarities immediately.

So with your belief that Jesus and the NT authors did not address homosexual behavior, and now with this, I just have to ask:
Why do you keep insisting you are familiar with and understand the scriptures, when you are continually giving mountains of evidence to the contrary?

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:55 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Mickey, you wrote:
"Homosexual activity is NOT illicit sexual activity. YOU just want it to be. The Bible is clearly talking about sexual activity where money changes hands."

To what verse are you referring? There's nothing in Mark 7:21-23 that is about money changing hands for sex. Do you know of any verse that condemns homosexual behavior precisely because of the money that changed hands?

Time to Separate Church and Sports?

mathetes »

Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Believer,
When you get some time, check out:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=133752&page=10

That's page 10 of the TheologyWeb's Screwball Awards of Nov. 2009 - you might recognize someone in J.P. Holding's posts. JP's real disappointed someone won't take his challenge to debate, so he posted him there, and several other TheologyWeb posters joined in the fun. JP posted more on page 13 as well, and a final one where someone gave up on page 15. Sounds like he threw a little tantrum and gave up having never debated JP Holding.

I hope you have a great day tomorrow. G'night!

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Mickey,
Please help me understand how you view Mark 7:21-23 so I can understand you better.

1. Do you believe that Jesus was the speaker according the the gospel of Mark?

2. Do you believe Peter accurately remembered what Jesus said?

3. Do you believe Mark accurately recorded what Peter told him that Jesus had said?

4. Do you believe that "porneia" does not mean "illicit sexual activity"?

I'm just trying to understand your repeated denial that Jesus did not condemn homosexual behavior. Thanks.

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

mathetes »

Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

(I had a typo in a key word, so here's the corrected text + a comment)

Mickey,
I know you can't read Greek; that's why I explained it to you. I'll try again. Here's what Jesus said:

Mark 7:21-23
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

"Fornications" in 7:21 translates the Greek word "porneia" which means "illicit sexual activity." What law makes these activities "illicit"? Jesus was referring to the OT Law, found in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. Lev. 18 + 20 shows what sexual sins are forbidden, hence illegal. Homosexuality is one of those sins.

So contrary to your assertions, Jesus did condemn homosexuality along with adultery, bestiality, etc.
-------------
Mickey,

Words do have meanings, or there is no point in communication. Since Jesus used "porneia" as did others in the NT, and since Jesus + the others were referring to the OT Law, you have done nothing to prove your point except to scream louder, no, He didn't!

Do you ever win any debates that way?