Pro-Gay Booklet's 'Facts' Draw Criticism

medievalist »

Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

My homosexual father (he came out when I was 4) even admitted it was his choice and an abomination before he died. He died of AIDS in 1994, sadly without Christ in his life.

Interesting side note, in a college sociology class I did a survey of 200 gay men, 87.2 percent admitted that they were abused as a child either sexually, mentally or emotionally. I always wondered if this was accurate or how many were abused but did not admit to it. My father was one of the respondents.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Summa,

A professional historian is someone (Master's or PhD level) who gets PAID to research, write, publish and/or teach history. In other words (and in my case) often a college professor of History.

If you have a degree in history(you never said you graduated in it, the area of study, or what level), the use it and go back to the primary sources of your church's history. You'll be surprised.


Self flagged previous post. Guess I'm cranky today too.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Summa,


summa wrote: I have always found it interesting how the LDS denounce creeds (which were developed to combat heresy), yet have a creed of their own (the Articles of Faith).

Quecat:

If you think quoting the Nicaean creed is going to prove anything, then you are wrong. Why adhere to a creed that is just the arguments of corrupt people who lived 325 years after Christ? Their arguments hold no more weight than if one were to have another council today and come to the conclusion of who God is...

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Summa,

Wrong again. Jerald Tanner was one of the best historians around. Most historians have easy access to their primary sources (particularly American historians), he did not. He had to fight for access or get it from private collections. His sources check out, I spent much research time validating his sources and checking for accuarcy of context (I am a professional historian). All of his sources were accurate and could be verified. Now , Hugh Nibley on the other hand, his sources were often taken out of context or were not there.

One of my American history professors (American History) in Grad school, who was LDS admitted to me that why he didn't agree with Tanner's conclusions, he could not fault him for being a good historian. Also, Tanner did something very few historians of any type do, if he changed his mind or found evidence to the contrary, he published it.

summa wrote:

The Tanner's works are full of inacruacies that have been proven wrong on multiple occasions. The LDS laugh at their attempt to "Disprove Mormonism." The Tanners are one of the most uncredilbe sources and they have been known as such for over twenty years.

Hinn Turns Over Material to Senate Panel

medievalist »

Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:06 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

I don't like these "prosperity gospel" preachers, and I believe they (for the most part) honor Christ with their lips but they hearts are far from them.

However, I do have a problem with the Senate getting involved in the Churches.

My Con. Law attorney husband even thinks this is an unconstitutional use of Senate power.

My Answer: Never Good Enough to Enter Heaven

medievalist »

Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Amen as well! Sadly, far too many believe you can work your way into heaven.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:40 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Summa,

I ask you to prayerfully read the book:

From God To Us:How We Got Our Bible by Norman Geisler and William Nix .

It addresses many of your issues regarding the bible. If you agree to read through it with me in a book club/discussion format, I will even send you a copy for free. God gave us minds in order to use them. Use yours.

Also, without WHOSE authority? The authority of Joseph Smith? He wrote (and in his own words completed_ his own Inspired Version of the Bible yet you fail to use that, instead you use the KJV.


Summa wrote:

About the bible being extrabiblical, sounds like an oxymoron.... Well the Bible as we have it today was put through additions of book, subtraction of books, changes in translations etc..... Many times, many years after the apostle's deaths.... Thats extrabiblical, or should I rather say, done without the proper authority.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Summa,

How can the Bible be extrabiblical? That makes NO sense whatsoever.



Summa wrote:

ou said you don't except the authority of extrabiblical teachings?

Well then you better not believe the trinity or read the bible you have today because it is all extrabiblical.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Summa,

Either you are being deliberately deceptive or you do not know the theological history of the LDS church very well. All of those beliefs can be documented through the Journal of Discourses, Writings of Parley P Pratt and other early apostles, writings of the LDS prophets, and early editions of Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine.

They are, if nothing else, part of the lay theology of the LDS (beliefs of the membership in general).

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Prophet,

What I was taught at BYU, LDS Sunday School and from other LDS members (see also Bruce R . McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" esp pre 1978 versions).:

They believe the Jesus is the only LITERAL son of God (in a physical sense).

Regarding the questions of Jesus and Satan (Lucifer) being brothers, they believe that they are spirit bothers just as we all are spirit brothers and sisters. In the great council of Heaven, Satan volunteered to be the "Son of God" and promised God the Father he would "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it, wherefore give me thine honor" (Moses 4:1-4). In essence they believe he would have denied free agency. When his plan was rejected, that is when he rebelled. Many members believe (and i was taught in the LDS church) that Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children, and Lucifer was the second born.


X-LDS since 1992, Christian since 1993.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Rae,
Not necessarily. I know several athiests who lead exemplary lives (better and with more good works than many Christians or Mormons). Does God approve of their teachings/beliefs? One friend in particular lives as a "good Christian", honest to a fault, full of love, kindness, gentleness, self-control etc. yet he is an avowed Atheist. Will he get to heaven? No, because works are not a "stamp of approval", rather a means to show our faith.
rae wrote:

"But notice that he paid attention to their works. Why? Because exactly as you said without good teachings there could not be good works. The versa is also true. If there are good works, there must be good teachings. How is that possible? Because it is the holy spirit that produces good works in abundance...This is easier to distinguish than teachings, and it evidence that a group's teachings ALSO have God's approval."

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

ep,

I stand by my statement that the LDS church is a cult (definition 5 of post below). I will discuss this further with you via email.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

How about instead of using the word "cult", which can apply to all organized religions we use the term "High Demand Group". The demands both groups on their members regarding time, talents, and money are exhausting.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

ep,

My use of the term cult was not meant to inflame. Rather it is an appropriate term as shown by the following (the LDS fits many of the definitions):

cult

–noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
2. the object of such devotion.
3. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
4. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
5. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
6. the members of such a religion or sect.

Pasted from <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult>

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:28 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

As far as being deceptive, it is the LDS church that is deceptive. They teach one set of things to potential converts, when someone joins they start discovering doctrines that were not taught before (lack of full disclosure), then this progresses until, if they stay, they go through the Endowments at the temple and discover more doctrines that they were not previously taught. This happened to me and I absorbed it all, justifying it because "milk before meat". Right? Wrong, it is called indoctrination.

The doctrines (not just temple, but LDS in general) that Christians often cite as offensive are:

1. The so called "Adam-God doctrine" _taught by Brigham Young as official doctrine (Journal of Discourses)
2. The Literal fatherhood of God in relation to Jesus Christ (Bruce McConkie - Mormon Doctrine among other sources)
3. Plurality of Gods (LDS hymn "If you could hie to Kolob" among other sources)
4. Mother in Heaven (LDS hymn "Oh my Father")


Now the LDS response is "these are not (or no longer) official doctrines". The church claims they are not official, but come from LDS sources. Moreover, they are part of the "Lay theology", meaning the majority of members accept and believe them. They are sanctioned beliefs if nothing else. Also regarding, #'s 3 &4, if they are not doctrine why are they still in the hymnbook and sung?

Among the historical issues I had were:

1. The events of the Mountain Meadows massacre
2. The bankruptcy of the Kirtland bank (Beloved apostle Parley P Pratt wrote a letter to JS accusing him of extortion regarding this matter and a land deal).
3. Joseph's propensity to tell fabulous tales of the Ancient Americas 3 years before the appearance of the BOM (In Lucy Mack Smith's Biography of her son).
4. Being told by a BYU history prof. that there was no documentation to prove JS was accused of "money digging" when there IS documentation.

I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE, I HAD A STRONG TESTIMONY. I SPENT MANY HOURS STUDYING AND SHED MANY TEARS IN THE DISCOVERY OF THE HISTORICAL ISSUES. In the end, however, I could not deny their authenticity. LEAVING WAS THE HARDEST THING I EVER HAD TO DO, BUT I COULD NO LONGER DENY THE FACT THE LDS CHURCH WAS LYING TO ME.

Fortunately, I FELL INTO THE ARMS OF THE TRUE CHRIST, AND TRUST HIM ALONE FOR MY SALVATION. GRIND AND AX? NO,I JUST WANT TO SHARE THE PURE LOVE OF CHRIST AND THE FREEDOM AND UNSPEAKABLE JOY I HAVE FOUND IN HIM, AND HIM ALONE, NOT A DENOMINATION.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:27 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

EP,

Axe to grind? Not at all. I have a great love for those who are LDS and I wish to see them in the presence of God the Father (Celestial Kingdom/Heaven). The ONLY way to get there is through the free acceptance of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ ON THE CROSS (not Gethsemane) nothing more nothing less, not denominational membership, works or the "signs and tokens" of the LDS temple.

Attack? No. Rather an attempt to reason and show the discrepancies in LDS history/theology.

The standard LDS response is "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" Pasted from <http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html> from the LDS Articles of Faith

Yet LDS focus their missionary efforts on those who are already Christians because it is easier to convert someone who has a Christian background. Who is attacking whom? If you believe the above, then why only go after Christians? The LDS do it because they want to share their "truth". Likewise, Christians wish to discuss the problems of the LDS church in order to show them the truth. There can be no double standard.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Online4him,

Praise Him indeed!

As far as the statement by someone else that critics bear false witness, I discovered the truth when, as a PROFESSIONAL HISTORIAN, I set out to prove the "anti-mormons" wrong. What I discovered was that there was sound evidence,primary sources- many from LDS documents (what are called "friendly sources") that proved the critics correct and left too many unanswered questions about the LDS.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons Fastest-Growing 'Churches' in U.S.

medievalist »

Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:45 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

Tamna,

Less than 50%. What this doesn't say is that the LDS (I don't know about JW's) still include in their numbers those who don't attend, and many who no longer consider themselves LDS. According to a study last year, only about half of those are "active" members.

The LDS do 2 things to keep thier numbers artificially inflated. First, they have changed how they 'count' members. They used to separate children under 8 (age of baptism), and list the number of births and deaths (check out old Ensgin issues at LDS.org - search for statistics/statical), now deaths are no longer given, and "children of record" are not separate. Along these lines, they DO list new "wards" or congregations, but have elimiated some to create new ones and merged others they have also lowered the number of members needed for a new congregation.

Secondly, they make it so difficult to get your name taken off church records, that many do not bother. If you do, they do not let you go easily. Many who want to leave, just stop going to the LDS church without any formal process. This is because a leaving member (particularly one who becomes a Christian) is harassed (and if living in Utah likely to lose a job/family/social standing).

I am a former Mormon, I had to fight for 3 years to get my name removed, I got the run around on where my records were located, then "paperwork" problems, visits from Church members begging me to "repent", etc. I lost my job, my apartment, and my fiancee, as well as all my friends. I moved out of state and after about a year received a letter saying they needed my new address to transfer my records (this was AFTER was told my name had been removed). So for many, it is just easier to let it go. I have documentation to prove this.

Finally, there was a study (I believe by Barna about 2002 - google it) that analyzed stats and gave the LDS a zero percent growth rather than what they claim.

I thank God nightly that He delivered me from that cult.


tamna wrote : The REAL question is this: How many of these "New" members of the LDS / JW's stay in the "church" after learning about all the doctrines and beliefs.

Dispelling Myths about Young Church Dropouts

medievalist »

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

This article lists several reasons, why they aren't leaving, but doesn't say why the ARE leaving.