We are always here. One thousand five hundred years before you existed, and we'll be here after your church no longer exists, especially non-denominationals which have a life span much similar to the life of their charismatic pastor. We will always exist, because Christ promised it. Lastly, if you look at the ledger of the the last 500 years since your Protestant Sects have come on to the sc...more

We are always here. One thousand five hundred years before you existed, and we'll be here after your church no longer exists, especially non-denominationals which have a life span much similar to the life of their charismatic pastor.

We will always exist, because Christ promised it.

Lastly, if you look at the ledger of the the last 500 years since your Protestant Sects have come on to the scene, more people have been killed and tortured via your sects leaders than ever compared to our 2000 year history. Throwing stones in a glass house, is not a good idea.

We all fall short of the glory of God, but that doesn't mean there isn't one true church either.less

USAsoccer, Those of us who come from Reformed, Lutheran, Anglican, Wesleyan theologies reject much of what Baptists have to say. Baptist theology is underdeveloped and is more well known for taking a little bit from Calvin, some from Zwingli, a little more from others. Baptists are a new group, whom Reformation Protestants disagree with much you purport, especially on Baptism. So, your view on ...more

USAsoccer,

Those of us who come from Reformed, Lutheran, Anglican, Wesleyan theologies reject much of what Baptists have to say. Baptist theology is underdeveloped and is more well known for taking a little bit from Calvin, some from Zwingli, a little more from others. Baptists are a new group, whom Reformation Protestants disagree with much you purport, especially on Baptism. So, your view on Baptism is rejected by 90% of Christians, since Catholics, Orthodox and all Reformation Protestants see Baptism as a new covenant which children and infants are included.

Here is the crux of your problem; who says I have to show you from the Bible to prove it is a Christian belief? Yes, you may test things against the bible and nothing may contradict, but if the Bible is silent on an area or does not take a exact position then the Church(Catholic Church)which is lead into all Truth and has God's authority must decide. Abortion is not in the Bible, many people will argue life doesn't begin until you are born and others will say at conception. The Catholic Church decided this issue 1,872 years ago. Abortion is always wrong says the Catholic Church. All Catholic beliefs are either implicit or explicit in scripture by the way, and I studied it for 10 years before I became Catholic.

There are three areas of authority, not one, that came from Apostolic Christianity; the Holy Scriptures which were proved against Sacred Tradition, Sacred Tradition are the teachings handed down by the Apostles, and lastly the teaching authority of the Apostles(Magisterium). The Catholic Church decided which books to put in the New Testament, so for you to accept the Bible's authority is to accept our authority on its Holy Inspiration. Sacred Tradition is the oral tradition that we are told to hold fast that helps us properly understand the context of Scripture and pass down the items that were not explicitly taught in scripture like Baptism for example. Baptism for infants was not explicity, but was implicit as Paul said it replaced circumcission. Circumcission is for babies. All babies were baptized and this is Apostolic Christianity. Baptist theology on this is wrong. Lastly, the Magisterium is authoritative. Did you notice at the council of Jerusalem they did not once say the scriptures say to do this; in fact, they went against OT scriptures that Gentiles did not have to have any part of Mosaic Law. The Apostles made their own decision based on Peter's dream. A dream, not based on scripture. So, I don't have to show you where my beliefs are in the Bible because that is not what Apostolic Christianity is about.less

If you enjoy any high brow Reformed Theology, then try this. http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/05/holy-orders-and-the-priesthood/ Pax

USAsoccer, I did have a look, and your response was predictable.

Yes, I've heard about this book by one of my past professors. I will review it. Thank you for the suggestion. Also, since you are a conservative Lutheran I'm guessing then you and I have a LOT more in common than with many of the non-liturgical non-sacramental Christians that post here. Very refreshing indeed.

Thank you. Now we are talking! Heterodoxy is a tragedy and a sin. Yes, I am hopeful that all the Liberals will leave and just become Episcopalians and that many more conservative bible believing Lutherans and Anglicans will continue to become Catholic. Since we do like many similar authors, we probably have a lot more in common. I hope to see you at the next pro-life rally then.

I quite enjoy Merlot.

If I didn't hope for your conversion, then that would not be a gift of love. Tolerance is not a Christian virtue, while love is. Love requires telling the truth, and praying with the Holy Spirit to move the person to Catholicism. I realize from your posts that you want me to say, "Your good and I'm good" so let's just have good conversations and see which authors we have both read. Christ will ...more

If I didn't hope for your conversion, then that would not be a gift of love. Tolerance is not a Christian virtue, while love is. Love requires telling the truth, and praying with the Holy Spirit to move the person to Catholicism.

I realize from your posts that you want me to say, "Your good and I'm good" so let's just have good conversations and see which authors we have both read. Christ will for unity will not permit me to do this. We cannot tolerate any longer our differences, whether small or significant, but rather in love and truth try to overcome our differences to be on one mind, one faith, one baptism, one Lord. To continue to be sepparated is to cause harm to the Christian message, and has and will continue to hinder our mutual ability to convert Muslims, Jews, Mormons to the Christian faith. Our division is against Christ will and we are called to unity in Truth.

Since we are not, I will continue to promote the Catholic faith until Christ will be done, which means having all Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and other Christians in full communion with the Catholic Church. I am an uber conservative and will not accept liberal, "I'm ok, your ok" platitudes.less

Krauth is on my desk shelf. Great book with a wealth of conservative theological views for confessional Lutherans. Now, if only the ELCA would follow some of it. I've always enjoyed Sasse. Here is a great website; http://sassedotalist.blogspot.com/ For your information I went to a meeting in Texas a few months back and there were about 80-90 Lutheran Pastors and Theologians who are seeking f...more

Krauth is on my desk shelf. Great book with a wealth of conservative theological views for confessional Lutherans. Now, if only the ELCA would follow some of it.

I've always enjoyed Sasse. Here is a great website; http://sassedotalist.blogspot.com/

For your information I went to a meeting in Texas a few months back and there were about 80-90 Lutheran Pastors and Theologians who are seeking full communion with the Catholic Church. These meetings give them an opportunity to ask the hard questions with Catholic Theologians and Priests at a very high level. It has been my experience that almost 80% convert after they are finished with the seminary process. The seminar, very similar to RCIA but with a deeper intellectual flair, is extremely fruitful.less

Tribtrooper, Would you debate a mechanical engineer on how he built a bridge or building if you have no training in engineering? Would you go to someone to debate them on Theology, when you do not have the Theological qualifications or training to formally debate?

He doesn't just teach the Health and Wealth Gospel, but he teaches at a level which most pastors would consider "Cotton Candy". Sweet to the taste, but makes you sick later.

I thought this might be helpful for you to read, if you would please. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/07/martin-chemnitz-is-man-for-lutherans.html http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/08/critique-of-martin-chemnitz-examination.html http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/08/critique-of-martin-chemnitz-examination_29.html http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/08/critique-of-martin-chemnitz...more

I thought this might be helpful for you to read, if you would please.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/07/martin-chemnitz-is-man-for-lutherans.html

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/08/critique-of-martin-chemnitz-examination.html

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/08/critique-of-martin-chemnitz-examination_29.html

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/08/critique-of-martin-chemnitz-examination_31.html

Some decent reading when you have time. I too, was a fan pf Chemnitz when I was in Seminary because much of what he wrote brought me out of being Baptist. My parents were Baptists, but when I went to seminary I questioned"Believers Baptism". I could not become Lutheran since they were too close to Catholicism and chose Reformed Theology instead.

My road to the Catholic Church was a long and winding route, but today I am happy to see 20+ Reformed and Lutheran Pastors from my Seminary who are now devout Roman Catholics.less

Objectivity, yes our differences can be more severe and this is why with the Grace of the Holy Spirit I hope and pray for your conversion to the fullness of truth. I never wanted to be Catholic, but Truth lead me. I had a very good situation and vocation as a Reformed Pastor, and walked away from all of it including a good salary for Truth of the Catholic faith. Christ compelled me. Here is...more

Objectivity, yes our differences can be more severe and this is why with the Grace of the Holy Spirit I hope and pray for your conversion to the fullness of truth.

I never wanted to be Catholic, but Truth lead me. I had a very good situation and vocation as a Reformed Pastor, and walked away from all of it including a good salary for Truth of the Catholic faith. Christ compelled me.

Here is a website that I and other Reformed Theologians debate current issues with so many Protestant Pastors becoming Catholic.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/

Enjoy.less

Online, here is the problem at hand for you. This is how the EARLIEST christians understood that scripture when it was said, which was almost 20-30 years before it was written down. When it was finally written down it was still understood in the same way. Apostolic Succession was practiced in this way since the beginning and while you may disagree with it, it is a historical Christian fact. Th...more

Online, here is the problem at hand for you. This is how the EARLIEST christians understood that scripture when it was said, which was almost 20-30 years before it was written down. When it was finally written down it was still understood in the same way.

Apostolic Succession was practiced in this way since the beginning and while you may disagree with it, it is a historical Christian fact. The only people who challenged the divinity of Christ, Trinity, humanity of Christ were those who didn't have Apostolic Succession.

I completely understand that you think you are right on this issue while ALL CHRISTIANS for the first 1500 years were wrong. I understand how you think you know more than those who were taught directly from the Apostles. It is the false doctrine of sola scriptura. To think you know more accurately that scripture, than how it was lived out by the earliest Christians shows you have an ego that is unable to look at the other side.

I looked at the Catholic position for almost 10+ years and to my chagrin, they were right and we Reformed and other Protestants were wrong. You can't look at the history and be anything but Catholic.less

Online, it would be my pleasure. Apostolic Succession: Acts 1:20-25 (New American Standard Bible) 20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT and LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE. 21"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- 22beginning with the ...more

Online, it would be my pleasure.
Apostolic Succession:
Acts 1:20-25 (New American Standard Bible)
20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT and LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.
21"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--

22beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us--one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

23So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.

24And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

This is Apostolic Succession in scripture. The Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Churches have all used this formula for picking successive Apostles and Bishops with Christ authority for 2000 years.

Now, conferring that authority comes from laying of hands; 1 Tim 4:14-gift conferred with the laying on of handsless

I must also ask, were you a professor? You said you would like to give instruction, so I'm just trying to understand my audience. What is your denomination?

USASoccer, You have a point. The Catholic Church has done a poor job in Catechesis over the last 40 years, so the least educated Catholics have gravited to the SBC and many other sects. But before that, education was quite high in the CC and mass attendance was 82%, compared to some estimates of 34-42% today. You are probably not that old, so this phenomina of Catholics going to become SBC or B...more

USASoccer,

You have a point. The Catholic Church has done a poor job in Catechesis over the last 40 years, so the least educated Catholics have gravited to the SBC and many other sects. But before that, education was quite high in the CC and mass attendance was 82%, compared to some estimates of 34-42% today. You are probably not that old, so this phenomina of Catholics going to become SBC or Baptists in general only has been happening in great numbers during the last 40 years. Before that, most Catholics would have not considered Baptists Christians and would have never considered your church since most SBC views are even a far stretch for Reformation Protestants to accept.

To be specific, the Sacraments are establishing a personal relationship with Christ. This is how the Apostles taught, through Tradition and Scripture. This is evidenced by the fact the oldest churches in the World; Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox all have 7 Sacraments and think of them the exact same way. More importantly, All Reformation Protestants have a very high view of our Sacraments even if they don't call them Sacraments. Since I was a former Reformed Minister, I should know.

The Southern Baptist Convention having about 100 years of life do a very good job affirming the Bible's authority, but just do a paltry job at interpreting it. Interpreting scripture is the Catholic Church's job and is not for private interpretation, since this is the authority given to us by Christ. The Catholic Church having existed since Christ and the Apostles is the ONLY church to have such history and authority.

Peace.less

Is this how you attract attention? You are first condescending, then just plain patronizing. I'm willing to look at any part of scripture or the examination of Trent, but first I must encourage you to refrain from being so haughty. When you depreciate others, you deride any hope of a civil conversation.

Pomposity is not a Christian virtue, and if you hold this as a virtue then you are not Christian.

But that would imply you have the faculties to give instruction. You make a lot of assumptions.