'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 7:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<Wonderful, I proved how it was illogical. You did not deny or disprove what I said. Please do so or drop this point.>>

I don't have to, it was you, remember? who claimed the bit about one point is logical and the other point is illogical. Do I drop the point just to satisfy you or because you feel I am not entitled to know why you haven't demonstrated why you believe it?

I said,
“FACT: He inspired others within his ranks to put the Nazi killing machine in place using propaganda, pogroms, demonization, and any means available.”

And you replied
<<I can’t see how this is relevant to our conversation, thus I am calling another red herring.>>

I find it hard to ignore the Christian inspiration Hitler attributed and devolped into his actions and I am literally taking Hitler's own words- his own words indicate his attachment to Christianity and his admiration for Martin Luther, in fact Martin Luther did many of the same things Hitler carried out. It is relevant to bring up a comparison, you use comparisons, albeit your's are usually illogical.

<<BUT THE POINT IS THAT I AM NOT SAYING HITLER USED LOGIC, I am saying that it is the logical outworking of those theories, which Hitler used. Can you deal with the point?>>

You said at 11:29 Saturday, and I quote
"Somebody else might interpret those differently, but I cannot see how they can possibly show how Darwin and Nietzsche cannot be logically used to justify such acts."
And on Saturday at 4:16 you said,
"You seem to be misunderstanding me. Hitler's use of Darwin/Nietzsche was logical and calculated, his use of Christianity was irrational and illogical. I said nothing about his actual stance, only the derivitive.
And on Saturday at 12:31 you said
"Why do I have the right to say it?because of Freedom of speech. Why is it proper that I say it? Because I am saying it about a directly comparable situation, the idea that somehow Christ would promote the murder of 6 million people (of any race) let alone his own people that he declared, "Father forgive them!" while on the cross, is shear ludicrousy, it defies reason, it is absurd. Therefore I and anyone else with half of a brain, can say "This is illogical use of Christian teaching."

So how are you able to demonstrate that Hitler's use of Darwinism is a logical outworking of the theory, and that the illogical outworking of Hitler's use of his Christian beliefs is illogical? Besides your rights or your claim of Freedom of Speech. I mean really, that doesn't satisfy a very pertinent question.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 7:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<I agree about Hitler taking Luther's ideas. But Luther does not speak for Christianity and he was wrong. >>

I found nowhere in my posts that suggested I thought that Luther spoke for Christianity. I did read another poster that claimed Luther inspired Hitler, and she substantiated her claim with quotes etc. However, I did not make that claim.

I said
“Why do you keep denying the cause and intent? PROVE, if you can, that you understand Hitler's underlying motivations.”

To which you replied <<This is a red herring and false. I quoted Mein Kampf:>>

I quoted Mein Kampf too, it is your claim that Hitler used Athiesm and Darwinian theories logically to justify his acts, and that Hitler's use of Christianity to justify his acts was illogical. Can you actually know someone's motivations and measure the intent those motivations and demonstrate how logical or illogical they are? You think it's illogical to use Christianity and you think it's logical to use a theory- but how does one demonstrate one or the other honestly?

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 6:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<I agree about Hitler taking Luther's ideas. But Luther does not speak for Christianity and he was wrong. >>

I found nowhere in my posts that suggested that Luther spoke for Christianity. I did read another poster claim Luther inspired Hitler, and she substantiated her claim with quotes etc. However, I did not make that claim.

<<This is a red herring and false. I quoted Mein Kampf:>>

I quoted Mein Kampf too, It is your claim that Hitler used Athiesm and Darwinian theories logically, and that Hitler's use of Christianity was illogical. Can you actually know someone's motivations and measure the intent those motivations and demonstrate how logical or illogical they are? You think it's illogical to use Christianity and you think it's logical to use a theory- but how does one demonstrate one or the other honestly?

<<Wonderful, I proved how it was illogical. You did not deny or disprove what I said. Please do so or drop this point.>>

I don't have to you claimed the bit about one point is logical and the other point is illogical. Do I drop the point just to satisfy you or because you feel I am not entitled to know why you haven't demonstrated why you believe it except?

<<I can’t see how this is relevant to our conversation, thus I am calling another red herring.>>

I find it hard to ignore the Christian inspiration Hitler attributed and devolped into his actions and I am literally taking Hitler's own words- his own words indicate his attachment to Christianity and his admiration for Martin Luther, in fact Martin Luther did many of the same things Hitler carried out. It is relevant to bring up a comparison, you use comparisons, albeit your comparisons are usually illogical. Case in point your Sesame Street comparison.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 4:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

No they don't, what they do is claim that it is impossible to claim that God / Gods do not totally exist (Allah, Thor, Jehovah ...fill in any name you wish to... )

My bad, I should have better stated atheism either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism and is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism. Sorry deny was the wrong choice.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 3:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<NO, I do not believe that and it is not related to this discussion (another red herring). Rather I believe that Hitler logically used Darwinian Theory and Nietzsche’s philosophy to do what he did. Somebody else might interpret those differently, but I cannot see how they can possibly show how Darwin and Nietzsche cannot be logically used to justify such acts.>>



My question was not a red herring. It is relevant to the discussion to ask, as I did, "Do you believe that the theory of Evolution leads to atheism, atheism leads to eugenics, and eugenics leads to Holocaust and Nazi Germany?” If you don't believe a theory can logically lead to it's worst case scenario, then it is following LOGIC. It's been your claim ALL along that Hitler used Darwin's and atheisms theories LOGICALLY, eventhough you admitted it is not a logical conclusion that a theory leads to act.



Before you conclude I am contradictory, I reiterate, I DO NOT believe Christianity is a theory. I believe, based on the testimony of MANY Christians, (some on this board) CHRISTIANTY to MOST Christians is a way of life. It is a close personal relationship with God, and Jesus Christ. It is something they claim they can prove with personal experience. Hitler did claim to be a Christian. He claimed in Mein Kampf that he was carrying out his masterplan to it's final solution based on Christian understanding and directions found in the Bible. Martin Luther's personal testimony, historical accounts of his words, actions and deeds fed Hitler's thoughts and fueled his actions. Can you deny that?

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 3:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

You said "Darwin/Nietzsche have no such rules, and actually are allowing of what Hitler did."
Reread my quote and finish it, I actually quoted you and tacked on a question. The sentance was actually this,(you stated) "Darwin/Nietzsche have no such rules, and actually are allowing of what Hitler did. " (and here's my question to you) "They have no rules, but they are ALLOWING of what Hitler did? How?"

I quoted YOU! And then asked YOU a question. YOU claimed that Darwin and Nietzsche have no such rules and they are ALOWING of what Hitler did, so are you now denying YOU said that? I copied your quote, I went back through the thread, it APPEARS you said it, now will you just tell me HOW is Darwin and Nietzsche allowing of what Hitler did?



Finally, if I tell a group of children that the best thing in life is to kill and hurt people, and those children grow up and do it, then who is to blame? Can I say, “I didn’t hold a gun to their head, I am completely innocent”? If not, then your last point is not valid.



HOW is my last point NOT valid? You are confused. If you tell a group of children that the best thing in life is to kill and hurt people, they may or may not grow up to do it- You are to blame for any measurable harm, because you have incited them to do something and are adding an enticement with "it's the best thing in life." Can you demonstrate that atheism or Darwinism allows your question? Does Darwin or any atheistic theories demand kill and hurt people because it's the best thing in life?

If I may, religion has a history of drawing people in and creating a sense of community and in some cases the community has followed it's leader even unto death- i.e. Jim Jones. Atheism and Darwinism presents a theory and leaves it there, Christianity is a way of life for many Christians and they actively seek to recruit others by enticing them with a variety of perks. Christianity incites it's followers to say creeds, believe a "holy" text, obey rules, live like a church community, tithe, etc. and in the end you will achieve eternal life. Atheism and Darwinism don't make those claims.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 3:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Athiests deny the existence of a God or Gods, they deny religion and they do not practice spiritual or religious precepts. Darwin based his theory on what observances he and previous scientists had found in NATURE.

And for many Christians, Christianity is a WAY OF LIFE.

you said <<If Christianity somewhere allows for the mass murder of a race, then please show me, if not then your point is invalid.>>

It can demonstrated thoughout history in events beginning in the First Century until the present-
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

I realize DENIERS claim that it is not a Christian Principle to carry out the evil, but when you read the propaganda, the apologetics, and all the revisions, it is ignorant to keep denying the TRUTH.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Mon May 05, 2008 3:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

<<You have contradicted yourself, you said a theory cannot be blamed for the misuse of its precepts, and now you have said that Christianity can. Which is it?

Is Christianity really a THEORY? I'd have to disagree with you based on evidence and what MANY Christians CLAIM. I don't believe that Christians view their religion, relationship with Jesus or their belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God(all claims they make and regularly debate and defend) If you are willing to agree that Christianity is merely a THEORY than I will admit I am contradicting myself.

wikipedia says,

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 1:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

<<You seem to be misunderstanding me. Hitler's use of Darwin/Nietzsche was logical and calculated, his use of Christianity was irrational and illogical. I said nothing about his actual stance, only the derivitive. >>

But it was you who said "the idea that somehow Christ would promote the murder of 6 million people (of any race) let alone his own people that he declared, "Father forgive them!" while on the cross, is shear ludicrousy, it defies reason, it is absurd. Therefore I and anyone else with half of a brain, can say "This is illogical use of Christian teaching"!

AND
"Perhaps Darwin said, "Love everyone so evolution can progress" or Nietzche said, "The ubermensch must assert his WILL TO LOVE, yeah baby!" But if you cannot show it, I am going to have to assume you are either confused or have no evidence."

There's nothing in your tortured use of the facts and illogic that confuses me- you can't support any of your claims.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 1:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<I gave a statement, but I am not talking about Hitler's personage, I am talking about his use of 3 separate theories, and how two are used logically, and one is not. This does not require proof, unless you doubt what the theories say, which you haven't suggested that doubt.>>

Why do you keep denying the cause and intent? PROVE, if you can, that you understand Hitler's underlying motivations.
FACT, I have used Mein Kampf, his speeches and his quotes--direct hisorical proof that he claimed he was inspired by Christianity to carry out his acts against the Jews.
FACT: He inspired others within his ranks to put the Nazi killing machine in place using propaganda, pogroms, demonization, and any means available.
FACT: Claiming theories or philosophies are responsible isn't evidence that their ideas cause measurable harm- otherwise saying societies have FORCED children to become murders, theives and rapists by allowing them to view TV, and play video games makes it the TRUTH.
By the same token, it can be comparable to point out that there is obvious sex, violence, murder and hatred within the pages of the Bible, anyone reading it could take it literally and justifiably defend their anti-social behavior on it. Are you willing to accept that as FACT?

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 12:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

READ my quote, again, I said <<"Do I need to remind you it's your argument that Hitler used logic to support his USE of Darwin's and Nietzsche's philosophies while using illogic to support his use of Christianity. ">>

your respose was...
<<You would be incorrect, I said that he logically used Darwin/Nietzsche not that he was a logical person. In other words, it was the logical outworking of Darwin/Nietzsche.>>

Where is my claim in my sentance that Hitler was a logical person? You're confused.

Your argument is just a fallacious appeal to consequences: meaning: the truth of something does not depend on the consequences of it being true; the truth of something depends on whether it is actually true or not. Nuclear weapons are terrible things, but that doesn’t mean that E does not equal M C squared.

Finally, will you answer this question honestly? Do you believe that the theory of Evolution leads to atheism, atheism leads to eugenics, and eugenics leads to Holocaust and Nazi Germany?

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 12:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<I am sorry, you are going to have to show me how Darwin/Nietzche cannot be used to commit such genocide. Perhaps Darwin said, "Love everyone so evolution can progress" or Nietzche said, "The ubermensch must assert his WILL TO LOVE, yeah baby!" But if you cannot show it, I am going to have to assume you are either confused or have no evidence.>>

Hitler’s solution was the opposite of allowing nature to select. Hitler’s approach was to artificially remove groups of people he didn’t like, from the gene pool, in what was undeniably a sickening version of selective breeding, as practiced by farmers for around 10,000 years before Darwin. If Hitler learned of the opportunities of such selective breeding from anywhere, it was from farmers’ knowledge and experience that predated Darwin. Which means that Hitler’s final solution was, if anything, an example of intelligent design.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 12:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<True, if the theory is illogically used. I proved that Christianity can't be blamed, because Christianity is that AGAPE Club. Darwin/Nietzsche have no such rules, and actually are allowing of what Hitler did. You can disagree, but that doesn't make your point right.>>

You can attempt to scapegoat the philosohies of Darwin and Nietzsche all you want, but there is no evidentiary support in anything you have posted that will substantiate it. You keep saying you've proven Christianity can't be blamed, and it can. Hitler said so himself his own testimony, his own writing and his own speeches prove it. HE condemns himself with that evidence just as Andrea Yates who killed her baby and blamed God. You keep saying THAT is not logical, that it makes no sense to you because Christianity doesn't support Hitler's actions. Well the logic rests in the FACT of his own claims.
You said "Darwin/Nietzsche have no such rules, and actually are allowing of what Hitler did. " They have no rules, but they are ALLOWING of what Hitler did? How? Did either of them hold the gun to Hitler's head and coerce him to carry out his calculated plan? Did they encourage him, cheer him on? Or did they just present their philosophies for anybody to read and judge like any author would? You can't just scapegoat a scientific theory or a philosophy because you disagree with it- no one has attempted to hold Einstein responsible for dropping the bomb even though his theory lead to it's invention.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 1:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

<<I don't make the rules here myTmuus, I just call the obvious.>>



You've called nothing. You've presented no facts, just perceptions. Perceptions don't hold any weight in court.


"What evidence supports your theory, D. James Kennedy's or Ben Stein's? Have you read Mein Kampf?"

<<Did you read my post? Or are you willfully ignoring what I said?>>



Your post ignored my questions and instead you talk around them. I addressed each remark one right after the other- carefully. Have you read Mein Kampf? And where is your evidence?

"Minimizing his madness and blaming athiest philosophies is comparable..."

<<Give me a break, jee whiz. I said, "...to say the least" Besides that he fooled thousands upon thousands of people, guess what, not all of them were crazy.>>



So he fooled thousands and thousands of people, HOW? Did he use manipulation, propaganda, nationalism, presenting Germans as victims, who had every right to reclaim the Motherland by any means possible? FWIW I don't recall calling his followers crazy.




<<myTmuus, too bad we are Christians and we believe that Christ fulfilled the Old Testament, and His commands superscede Old Testament commands, thus "An eye for an eye" becomes, "Turn the other cheek". Also, the commands in the Old Testament were for a specific people and a specific time. Unless Hitler can somehow turn, "Destroy the Hittites at this time" to "Kill anyone you want anytime" then he would have a hard time making his case.>>



That plea to emotionalism counts for nothing. Again you prove my poin, what's stopping him from manipulating Darwin if he's clearly manipulating the Bible? You believe it's logical to manipulate Darwin or Nietzsche, but illogical to manipulate the Bible based on BELIEF- it's your word against mine, only my FACTS validate my statements, you just ignore them.

<<myTmuus, I do not have to read Hitler's writings to know that he illogically used Christian idea, because I know Christian idea, and it does not allow such killing.>>



You have to read them in order to use them to prove your point. No evidence, no FACT.



<<You are going to have to show me where Christ endorsed killing or killed someone to make your case, because as Christians we follow Christ. If you can do that, I will accept your case.>>



That's ironic, I never said Christ endorsed killing. But based on evidence, Hiltler defends his action with both Christianity and the Bible. The Grand Inquisitors murdered using the Bible as the basis for their actions- it's a fact. So manipulations are exactly what I am and have been claiming ALL along.

<<f not, you lose your point is not sustainable. >>



Really, since you have helped me prove my point, I want to know, did you really mean to do so or were you not paying attention?

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 1:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

<<Why do I have the right to say it?because of Freedom of speech. Why is it proper that I say it? Because I am saying it about a directly comparable situation, the idea that somehow Christ would promote the murder of 6 million people (of any race) let alone his own people that he declared, "Father forgive them!" while on the cross, is shear ludicrousy, it defies reason, it is absurd. Therefore I and anyone else with half of a brain, can say "This is illogical use of Christian teaching"!>>



I didn't question your "right" to claim anything, I'm questioning your authority to demonstrate or make such ridiculous claims regarding logic and illogic. On what grounds qualify you to determine any of that without any evidence. Where is your proof? I submitted speeches he made and quotes from his books, you gave NOTHING.

<<On the other hand, we saw exactly how logically he applied Nietzsche and Darwin, as he went strictly by what they said and the natural implications of their teachings. It is in complete agreement with their philosophies, thus it is "logical".>>



Misuse of intent does not qualify as proof of logic or illogic. It's like I said, the three woman who I used as examples based their actions against their children on the grounds that their religious leanings, they logically and precisely articulated. It doesn't make sense to me, they are murderers but it's their word against mine. It's an impasse. Works the same in Hitler's case.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Sat May 03, 2008 1:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

<<You are not going to get very far.>>


Really. According to you?

Do I need to remind you it's your argument that Hitler used logic to support his USE of Darwin's and Nietzsche's philosophies while using illogic to support his use of Christianity.

Can you support that will hard evidence? I used his quotes from documented speeches and

books- his words speak for themselves, how do you propose to address that? So far all you have done is produce your personal presumptions and your personal assumptions. You neglect ALL facts, as does Stein and D. James Kennedy.


<<Here is an example that might help you. Say I decide to create a club (the agape love club) that says, "You must love everyone to be a member of this club, and it is against club rules to be violent" And then John Doe joins my club and starts saying, "Because of AGAPE LOVE CLUB teaching I am going to kill millions of people, wahahha!"

Guess what mytmuus, he illogically used the precepts of my club.>>



It's not illogic to misuse the precepts of your rules. You're misuse of comparison is rather irresponsible. Hitler was a Christian, he believed he was carrying out God's will, he logically and calculatedly carried out his plans as far as they went. You have just inadvertently proved my point with you comparison- you can not prove the illogic or logic of intentions- but you laid the ground rules in your "CLUB" analogy, and the person who abused the precepts of your intentions(like Hitler did with any philosophy he made attempts with,) is the person who bears responsibility for any negative actions. But do you actually know Hitler's intent is based on either logic or illogic- you made the claim and you used a bad analogy and are telling me I'm not getting very far? Please. You proved my point for me. If your precepts can't be blamed for John Doe's potential murder rampage, athiesm and Darwinism can't be blamed. That's logic, not what your proposing.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Fri May 02, 2008 8:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Chris333 said,
<<Nazis illogically used Christianity and a "cultural" form of Christianity. They logically used Nietzsche and Darwinian theory.>>

On what grounds are you qualified to determine which USE is logical and which USE is illogical?
READ Hitler's own words, he was influenced by his Christian beliefs, he justifies his actions USING Christianity, and he says so many times.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison."

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: _by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord._ "

Other scholars and theologians agree

". . . centuries of Christian hostility to Jews prepared the way for the Holocaust. The Nazis are inconcievable apart from this Christian tradition. Hitler's pogrom, for all its distinctiveness, is the zenith of a long Christian heritage of teaching and practive against Jews." (Theologian Clark Williamson, Christian Theological Seminary, Indianapolis.)

"The isolation of Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books, and finally the burning of the people--- Hitler learned it all from the Church. However, the Church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas." "The clergymen don't tell you whom to kill; they just tell you whom to hate." (Dr. Dagobert Runes, Historian, child of a Holocaust victim.)

"The Holocaust was, of course, the bitter fruit of long centuries of Christian teaching about the Jewish people." (Dr. Franklin Littell, Temple University.)

"The decision taken, the Fuehrer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God - so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty." from Adolph Hitler, by John Toland

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Fri May 02, 2008 7:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

<<... killing yes, but God never justified or commanded rape; please no lying on the message board >>

I said nothing about God commanding rape. What I did say was that the Bible is literally FILLED with God's justification for possessing, subduing and supplanting hundreds of thousands of established NATIONS by murdering, raping and leaving them desolate. I used the word NATION, not person, not woman- when one uses the term "raping the NATION" it is an allusion to GENOCIDE.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Fri May 02, 2008 6:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Truly, honestly, historically, Hitler used Nietzche and Darwin to logically work out what he did.

What evidence supports your theory, D. James Kennedy's or Ben Stein's? Have you read Mein Kampf?

<<Granted he was a bit crazy himself to say the least, he justified what he did with the two biggest atheist philosophies possibly ever to have existed (with Marx somewhere in there). >>

A bit CRAZY to say the least? He planned, and carried out the mass murder of 6 million Jews and several thousands of Gypsies, homosexuals, disabled and dissenters. Minimizing his madness and blaming athiest philosophies is comparable to the women who blame God for telling them to kill their own babies. You realize Chris333 that the Bible is literally FILLED with God's justification for possessing, subduing and supplanting hundreds of thousands of established nations by murdering, raping and leaving them desolate- a person who reads the Bible could very well attribute and justify their murderous actions as "Thus sayeth the Lord." Be very careful with your understanding of "use of philosophy is to blame."

<<There is not really much denying this, perhaps Hitler abused the message of Christianity, and played on peoples' fears, but he did not logically work it out from Christianity (thus abused).>>

You say "he did not logically work it out from Christianity," yet HIS own writing proves otherwise, I suggest you do some TRUE, REAL, HISTORIC investigating and then you can reenter this debate- everything you suggest is entirely based on a presumption.

'Expelled' Correct on Darwin, Hitler Link, Says Christian Group

myTmuus »

Fri May 02, 2008 6:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chris333 said...
<<It is not acceptable to say that Hitler was driven by his Christian understanding to do what he did, as Christ condemns all attacking of another person, especially one's perceived enemies.>>

Can you honestly tell me WHY it's not acceptible to speak the truth using Hitler's own words?

Or are you just bothered by the fact that Hitler would use his faith in the same manner The Grand Inquisitors of the Roman Catholic Church did in the 12th Century in their attempt to annihilate Jews, pagans, perceived enemies of the church and heretics?
BTW, in case you missed my point, I quoted Hitler directly from his own words found in Mein Kampf, so what's your point?

I reiterate, "The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine."
AND
"Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-and this against their own nation."



Those are two direct quote from Mein Kampf- Hitler in which he attributes and justifies his hatred of the Jews to Christianity. Sorry, but the facts speak for themselves.