of course sw could be johnson by another name, same type of rhetoric..

Despite ala's statements to the contrary, there is a God! There must be because we agree on something.... ;-P

Either Eve is a plant or something even worse - someone who claims to be His follower but is unfortunately not.

Most Baptist churches are run the same way, not all but most. Grew up in a Baptist church, was born again and baptized in a Baptist church. Love Baptists as my brothers and sister. The trouble is that the Baptist "way" of polity is not what Scripture says the way the church should be governed. I love Paige Patterson and look forward to many long talks with him but his defense of the Baptist "wa...more

Most Baptist churches are run the same way, not all but most. Grew up in a Baptist church, was born again and baptized in a Baptist church. Love Baptists as my brothers and sister.

The trouble is that the Baptist "way" of polity is not what Scripture says the way the church should be governed. I love Paige Patterson and look forward to many long talks with him but his defense of the Baptist "way" (single elder congregationalism) is weak and is born of tradition and not of Scripture.

The problem is that these men being called deacons and having some elder responsibilities leaves out deacons from the congregation's polity. Just by definition these leaders are relegated a lower office to "the pastor" who is "the elder" and that is not biblical.

Thankfully, church polity is not an issue of esse for the church. Polity is certainly a bene esse matter though.less

Bel, The matrix is Scripture for me and deacons are those who perform the functions of physical service to members so it isn't an issue in my book. The only time a problem appears is when people are called deacons but are put in the position of elder instead. The issue of "headship" in a congregation doesn't even come to mind for me when speaking of how Scripture models the polity. Elders ar...more

Bel,

The matrix is Scripture for me and deacons are those who perform the functions of physical service to members so it isn't an issue in my book. The only time a problem appears is when people are called deacons but are put in the position of elder instead.

The issue of "headship" in a congregation doesn't even come to mind for me when speaking of how Scripture models the polity. Elders are by definition males and those who preach or teach under their authority is as far as I can tell, properly covered by authority whether the preachers or teachers be male or female.less

Bel, Thanks for your kind words my friend. I think we may disagree on the deacon/deaconess controversy but maybe not - not really sure where you stand on that and I'm not spoiling for a fight either! lol And elder is an elder is an elder and elders are by definition men so women cannot be elders (and they should be glad they are not expected to be elders). The deacon issue is a bit more ...more

Bel,

Thanks for your kind words my friend. I think we may disagree on the deacon/deaconess controversy but maybe not - not really sure where you stand on that and I'm not spoiling for a fight either! lol

And elder is an elder is an elder and elders are by definition men so women cannot be elders (and they should be glad they are not expected to be elders).

The deacon issue is a bit more tricky and to be honest, the text (1 Tim 3) is not clear and we know they had deaconesses by AD 100 but know nothing before that for a few different reasons.

It always makes me sad to see people who claim His glorious name, endorse and defend such doctrines that come not from careful study of Scripture but from the culture.

I am hoping eve will teach me though, the closer I get to God and the more I learn, the deeper the water becomes.less

Those believers were not burning their books to get in the face of their neighbors nor to be jerks trying to "prove" something. They burned their own books because they wanted to get rid of their own property. They didn't go out looking to "make a statement" to everyone else. One is an act by people minding their own business looking to rid themselves of something evil. The other is someone...more

Those believers were not burning their books to get in the face of their neighbors nor to be jerks trying to "prove" something. They burned their own books because they wanted to get rid of their own property. They didn't go out looking to "make a statement" to everyone else.

One is an act by people minding their own business looking to rid themselves of something evil.

The other is someone looking to cause trouble, going out of his way to purchase a book that he didn't follow previously so as to make a "statement" to the world and knowingly and desiring controversy and calamity.

One of these examples follows the commands of Scripture and one does not. And you can be assured the righteous act is not the latter example.less

lp, Karzai can do whatever he wants but if Jones didn't act like the demonic childish punk, the non-event couldn't be a shame on Jesus' great name let alone used for a riot and killings. mm45 - wisdom would be nice too! Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should and doesn't absolve us of our own culpability. Steve and I agree??? There must be a God!

Sounds about right so the question is, "what is a classic conservative" to Steve?

eve, The Greek is far less strong than the English renderings. "Silence" does not mean silence as we mean it in English - it is an attitude of quietness. Understanding the Greek would help a bit there eve. Women are NEVER commanded to be submissive to men in general, they are to be submissive to their husbands. Women are not the submissive little things for men as your words portray. W...more

eve,

The Greek is far less strong than the English renderings. "Silence" does not mean silence as we mean it in English - it is an attitude of quietness.
Understanding the Greek would help a bit there eve.

Women are NEVER commanded to be submissive to men in general, they are to be submissive to their husbands. Women are not the submissive little things for men as your words portray.

Whether in 1 Tim 2, Ephesians 5, or 1 Cor 14, women are called to be submissive to their own husbands - NOT to men in general.

So, preaching is not out because 1 Tim 2 speaks of usurped authority and as long as the preacher (who is not y definition an elder, a deacon, a teacher) is under the proper authority of the elders of the church, that preacher is not disobeying Scriptural commands and expectations.

Your being strong in your opinion is admirable eve but it is not based on what the texts say, it is based on the English renderings which is not a transference of thought from the Greek but is more interested in getting a word for word translation at the expense of accuracy of translation.

This is not a phenomena only to Scripture either. Anyone who understands translations (or is a translator for someone who doesn't speak English for example) will tell you often, "there is no real accurate translation in English (or French) for this word."

After having been taught to be a biblicist by profs who are known as quite conservative by the more conservative (including reformed) scholars, learned that the English hides much because we demand word-for-word translation. Just because one read the English doesn't mean one understands the meaning of the passage.

Thanks for your post and I appreciate your clear-cut statement about my educational level and study skills. Obviously, you have better education and understanding of the original languages than I so please, expound on the Greek and teach me. As my name says, learning is what I try to do continually. Please teach me.less

How EXACTLY is Noble a heretic?

Because Scripture doesn't say all pastors (shepherds) are elders nor does Scripture say that women cannot preach or prophesy.

Calvin couldn't endorse the "L" as those who like to claim Calvin's name do. Besides, that is unscriptural and one has to twist Scripture pretty freaking badly out of shape to make the claim.

So you expect those paying the freight to pay whatever you think they should and shut up and take it? Amazing when one understands that we live in a republic...

Agreed!

That is accepted wisdom Steve but when one looks at the actual election results from the past 3 decades, the evidence clearly shows that the one who is seen as the conservative wins more often than the one who looks and acts like the moderate. Like it or not, the overall numbers show that the moderates usually lose.

Actually, 1. 1 Timothy 3 says that men are elders and that women should not be usurping authority. It does not say that women cannot be preachers. 2. God is not male. Scripture does not say that God is male. Father is a term used to denote the position and relationship Yahweh holds, it has nothing to do with a sex. If God was a male He would be incomplete because a male is only half of a...more

Actually,

1. 1 Timothy 3 says that men are elders and that women should not be usurping authority. It does not say that women cannot be preachers.

2. God is not male. Scripture does not say that God is male. Father is a term used to denote the position and relationship Yahweh holds, it has nothing to do with a sex.

If God was a male He would be incomplete because a male is only half of a specie by definition.

3. Absolutely right!

4. Women understand far more than men what it means to be a bride. The church is called His bride, there will be a marriage supper with His bride (the whole body of believers) being presented to Jesus as a bride. The imagery is unmistakable and for a woman to think of God as her husband is a perfectly biblical way of seeing her God. This of course doesn't include thinking about having sex with God and other activities between a man and woman since the picture certainly doesn't support that.

Modalism and self-focused these folks are and THAT is why the work of Jakes and those like him fails to deliver - it is not in the power of God.less

rsr, Your attempt at humor failed for two reasons. 1. There is no truth on which to make your joke and, 2. Laughing at one's own pathetic statement is never funny. Carry on!

The reaction is despicable but predictable. Senseless... Jones is a demonic fool and so are his followers (yes, they are Jone's followers, not Jesus' followers). Jones isn't a murderer but he knew that this would happen so he is culpable. His actions are despicable and bring much shame on the name of Jesus.

We should be thankful for Bart, he is easily shown to be a fraud.