Upon reflection (always a good thing) there are a couple of positives here. If teachers can discuss personal beliefs, of course if they have none, they will be equally as free to discuss why. and all of these other "freedoms" are equally double-edged swords. If evolution teaching is strengthened, and it should be as it is a joke now, and perhaps if there was a course that would teach t...more

Upon reflection (always a good thing) there are a couple of positives here. If teachers can discuss personal beliefs, of course if they have none, they will be equally as free to discuss why. and all of these other "freedoms" are equally double-edged swords. If evolution teaching is strengthened, and it should be as it is a joke now, and perhaps if there was a course that would teach the true origins of the bible and Christianity as they are taught in seminaries, I would have no problem whatsoever with that.less

My goodness, here we go again! There is one thing I just don't understand about these efforts, and that's simply this: You have, quite properly, absolute control of the religious training of your own children; why the heck do you think you should have control over the religious training of others children? I want my grandchildren to have a shot at the same reality-based public schoo...more

My goodness, here we go again! There is one thing I just don't understand about these efforts, and that's simply this: You have, quite properly, absolute control of the religious training of your own children; why the heck do you think you should have control over the religious training of others children?

I want my grandchildren to have a shot at the same reality-based public school experience that I had. Why should it be tempered by classes such as this? If you want to teach your folk myths and fairy tales, you have ample opportunity through home schooling, private xtian schools, and training in your own churches.

I hope American's United and the other secular organizations push back, and push back hard on this.less

`Yes, the guy is surely brilliant, but he and I just have one little difference (aside from me not being brilliant)and that is: He looks at a waterfall and sees evidence of the truth of the trinity, I look at a waterfall and I see proof of gravity and hydrodynamics.

DanielPaul, yes, that's part of it, but the whole system is a mess. I agree with BillWatson a reasonable means must be found to pay for a public/private option, and the fair tax, if that's what you're suggesting, is a reasonable solution. I am 63 without health insurance due to a MI I had nearly ten years ago. Fine since then with a total cholesterol less then 140, but no mat...more

DanielPaul, yes, that's part of it, but the whole system is a mess. I agree with BillWatson a reasonable means must be found to pay for a public/private option, and the fair tax, if that's what you're suggesting, is a reasonable solution.

I am 63 without health insurance due to a MI I had nearly ten years ago. Fine since then with a total cholesterol less then 140, but no matter, United Health noCare says "That will be 1,800/month, please, or forget it!

Like many others who were formally self-employed, we are one illness, accident or fall from bankruptcy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not whining, I had many opportunities to work long-term for large employers but chose to stay in my own business, so that's how it goes. We'll be OK if we make it to medicare without something really bad happening.less

ID: No, I don't think reporting on what is transpiring is stupid, I think that legislation such as this, which is so rife with unintended consequences, is stupid. Cutting to the chase, all of the pre-birth "stuff," from abortion to stem cells is all predicated on the same concept-the existence and presence of a "soul." I don't think that there is any justificat...more

ID:

No, I don't think reporting on what is transpiring is stupid, I think that legislation such as this, which is so rife with unintended consequences, is stupid. Cutting to the chase, all of the pre-birth "stuff," from abortion to stem cells is all predicated on the same concept-the existence and presence of a "soul."

I don't think that there is any justification for any of this legislation until such time as the existence of such an entity is proven by science beyond a reasonable doubt. You can parse, mince, take-out-of-context and just flat make up all the so-called "scientific evidence" you like; life vs. not life; human vs. not, etc. all you like, but at the end of the day it still boils down to soul or no soul, and that's a religious not scientific question.

So where are we? This is looking like a church/state matter and another case of the religious trying to find a new way to slip your morality into the US code. Prove the existence of a soul, and perhaps we can talk, otherwise, even if this legislation is passed, the courts will throw it out - they HAVE to.

You have every right in the world to work through the system to implement changes you would like to see, and I would be the last person to deny this, but when something is as blatantly wrong (and yes, breathtakingly stupid) as this legislation, don't expect to have a smooth ride.less

Continuing from Rhi, what if a pregnant woman chooses to have a glass of wine, dance, have sex in fact, do anything that would endanger her "child?" I guess a positive pregnancy test would lead to nine months of "confinement" just as it used to in the "good old days." That's not even the most important question though. What do we do about the greatest aborti...more

Continuing from Rhi, what if a pregnant woman chooses to have a glass of wine, dance, have sex in fact, do anything that would endanger her "child?" I guess a positive pregnancy test would lead to nine months of "confinement" just as it used to in the "good old days."

That's not even the most important question though. What do we do about the greatest abortionist of them all? More pregnancies are terminated by god then any other cause, by far. Can we hold a woman for third-degree murder if she has a miscarriage when the cause can't be determined?

I am ashamed of this country when I see stupid, ignorant things like this in the press.less

"GOd expects His people to abide in His laws for right conduct and right living. TOday, gOvernments exist to uphold these moral laws." Some governments do exist to that are based upon and uphold what they see as "gods moral law." You wouldn't want to live there, though, 'cause the moral laws they uphold are based upon a different moral code then yours, for the mos...more

"GOd expects His people to abide in His laws for right conduct and right living. TOday, gOvernments exist to uphold these moral laws."

Some governments do exist to that are based upon and uphold what they see as "gods moral law." You wouldn't want to live there, though, 'cause the moral laws they uphold are based upon a different moral code then yours, for the most part.

The reason Madison, Jefferson and others kept god out of our government is because of the problems inherent in choosing WHICH particular flavor of god to base the laws upon. If you think this is not true, take a look at the patchwork of religious laws that existed in the colonies prior to independence, and even afterword. There were ten colonies with state religions, and between them there were six religions represented, all with different rules.

Besides, Madison realized that morality doesn't come from god or religion anyway. Do you really think the man who wrote to William Bradford in 1774: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect" would frame a theocracy?

Sorry, but our laws do not exist to codify your moral code, or mine either. Thank goodness!less

"I want to reiterate the fact that all I did was teach what the Holy Bible says about criminal justice...." The "holy" bible is NOT and never has been the law in the United States! Frankly, who gives a darn what it says? Nothing can change the FACT that the killing of Dr. Tiller was cold-blooded murder perpetrated by a distressed individual acting in concert with what he...more

"I want to reiterate the fact that all I did was teach what the Holy Bible says about criminal justice...."


The "holy" bible is NOT and never has been the law in the United States! Frankly, who gives a darn what it says? Nothing can change the FACT that the killing of Dr. Tiller was cold-blooded murder perpetrated by a distressed individual acting in concert with what he believed to be "gods justice." If you believe what he did was right and correct, you also share in the moral responsibility for this crime.

We work within the system to bring about change in this country, we don't go around killing those who disagree with us to impose our own moral codes. Whether you like it or not, all the blastocysts, embryos and fetuses in the world don't add up to one single human being. That's not just my opinion, that's the law! If you don't like it, elect another conservative president to appoint another knuckle-dragger to reverse Roe. Otherwise, stick to your protests, vigils and marches.less

This is indeed an encouraging report, but methinks Ham is missing the point. I think this is as much a rebellion from hate and bigotry as it is from fairy tales. I can sense Ham's unease, though, as he sees himself as the primary guardian of Christianity. He firmly believes that if you take away the creation myth, Christianity crumbles away. No need for a savior if no fall. Of course h...more

This is indeed an encouraging report, but methinks Ham is missing the point. I think this is as much a rebellion from hate and bigotry as it is from fairy tales.

I can sense Ham's unease, though, as he sees himself as the primary guardian of Christianity. He firmly believes that if you take away the creation myth, Christianity crumbles away. No need for a savior if no fall. Of course he wants you to keep running to his silly museum.less

This debate was a good example, as others have noticed, that demonizing the other side, which seems to happen more over this particular issue then any other, does absolutely no good. I personally agree with Stewart's position, but I can understand Huck's position too and appreciate his viewpoint. My prognosis is that we will all limp along in this debate for the foreseeable future as...more

This debate was a good example, as others have noticed, that demonizing the other side, which seems to happen more over this particular issue then any other, does absolutely no good.

I personally agree with Stewart's position, but I can understand Huck's position too and appreciate his viewpoint. My prognosis is that we will all limp along in this debate for the foreseeable future as there is no resolution in site.less

What's needed is a special prosecutor, not some commission that will go around granting immunity to those (like the former Vice President) who need to be in Leavenworth. Let an SP go where the evidence takes him. Might even nail some Democrats but so what. We need to get this behind us.

This would be kind of like the Saudi's buying ground zero once the buildings were conveniently removed by a group they supported. This is a country of laws, and we are supposed to work within the system to facilitate change, not use terror as a tool to impose our moral standards on others.

All of the zygotes, embryos and fetuses in the world don't add up to a single living breathing person. that's not just my opinion, that's the LAW! In this country, we work within the system to facilitate change; we don't use terrorism as a tactic to impose our own views of morality on our fellow citizens, the Taliban does that! The cold-blooded assassination of Dr. Tiller ...more

All of the zygotes, embryos and fetuses in the world don't add up to a single living breathing person. that's not just my opinion, that's the LAW! In this country, we work within the system to facilitate change; we don't use terrorism as a tactic to impose our own views of morality on our fellow citizens, the Taliban does that!

The cold-blooded assassination of Dr. Tiller by a Christian terrorist was the moral equivalent of a witch burning, perpetrated by an operative of the anti-choice movement for the express purpose of denying a legal procedure to desperate women who have nowhere else to turn. When absurd dogma "justifies" an atrocity, especially one that some applaud, it's time for reasonable people to say ENOUGH!

And we will! Am I angry? Yes I am, because each and every one of you who supports those that foster and encourage these acts are equally guilty.

Change the law, if you can, don't murder people!less

I can certainly understand the Christian's points in this article, for on the surface is does appear that the President leaned a bit too far towards Islam. Taking a longer view, he is proposing is a new beginning between the cultures, a "fresh slate," if you will. Reciprocal freedoms MUST be part of future arrangements, and will be, I'm sure. Baby steps. First we have to ge...more

I can certainly understand the Christian's points in this article, for on the surface is does appear that the President leaned a bit too far towards Islam. Taking a longer view, he is proposing is a new beginning between the cultures, a "fresh slate," if you will. Reciprocal freedoms MUST be part of future arrangements, and will be, I'm sure. Baby steps. First we have to get them to stop wanting to kill us just because we ARE us.less

Whoops, did I really type that! 44, 44 to go!

Amen to that, brother! Six down, 54 to go.

Scientist3: So I'm ignorant? Well, I guess I don't blame you for filtering your worldview through the lens of your beliefs, for I see you have no choice. If evolution is true (along with the mountains of data from all of the sciences that support it), your worldview and your religion collapses like a house of cards. Without a fall, your savior is about as useful as, oh I don't...more

Scientist3:

So I'm ignorant? Well, I guess I don't blame you for filtering your worldview through the lens of your beliefs, for I see you have no choice. If evolution is true (along with the mountains of data from all of the sciences that support it), your worldview and your religion collapses like a house of cards. Without a fall, your savior is about as useful as, oh I don't know, an appendix let's say.

Phillip Johnson realized this several years ago, leading him to propose his "wedge strategy" to get the teaching of creationism back into the public school systems. His group created ID out of whole cloth as a means to circumvent the first amendment which precludes the teaching of anything but real science. Well, Dover ended that, now the Discovery folks seem to be floundering much like the Republicans who pander to them.

Johnson's original plan, extrapolated out to it's logical conclusion, was to end the teaching, not only of evolution, but eventually of all science in the schools. Sorry, but those of us who care about reality will do whatever is necessary to avoid another thousand years of darkness presided over by superstition and fear. Showing up on blogs like this and pushing back against ignorance is one the ways we accomplish this.

It's too late for you, and those who "think" like you, but polls indicate that our efforts are not lost on your children and grandchildren. It's only a matter of time....less

"hohn, a lot would depend on the spiritual or religious make up of biologists, if a majority are atheists, agnostics, or religious in name only, then it would be very obvious as to why they support evolution as opposed to creation, intelligent, and possibly even theistic evolution. " I'm sorry, Believer, but this is one of the most ignorant comments I have seen you make! Facts a...more

"hohn, a lot would depend on the spiritual or religious make up of biologists, if a majority are atheists, agnostics, or religious in name only, then it would be very obvious as to why they support evolution as opposed to creation, intelligent, and possibly even theistic evolution. "

I'm sorry, Believer, but this is one of the most ignorant comments I have seen you make! Facts are facts, and they are what drives science. Not dogma, preconceived notions or anything else.

If there was a SHRED of evidence supporting ID creationism or any other kind of creationism, the few "creation scientists" would be trampled in the rush of real scientists eager to participate in the race to overturn evolution by natural selection. Why? Because there is a Nobel prize awaiting whomever successfully overturns a cornerstone of science.

In order to support creationism in any form, one must ignore not only Biology, but Astronomy, Geology, Paleontology and even Physics as well. Findings from all of these sciences as well as others support one another. For instance, you can't have a nuclear power plant AND a 6,000 year old earth, the rates of decay are what they are.

I know you desperately need Adam and Eve, but I'm afraid you will have to do without them.less

Yes, by all means support the only museum I know of where folks come out more ignorant then they were when they went in. As a country, we are shamed by this farce!

I actually think Cheney said it best: "So?"