alafoil, my particles feel better after I pray. -:)

I guess we have to agree to disagree. Your linking of moral equivalency to inequivalent actions is unacceptable, in my opinion. Not to mention that your assumption of intent would be difficult to prove in a court of law. "The devil made me do it" doesn't cut mustard, neither does, "Jonesy made me do it."

Little girl praying: Lord, make the bad people good, and make the good people nice...

gd, are you changing your position? You started out by saying that Jones and the mob are equally guilty. So now are you saying that they are both responsible for their actions, but that murder is a much more serious offence than burning a book, that these actions are not morally equivalent? If so, we're on the same page.

Attitudes, bro, attitudes...

gd, you haven't really responded to my arguments about agitated people, moral equivalency, Karzai, etc. It seems to me that you are defending murderers and blaming a goofball for their actions. Does not compute. Would not stand in a court of law. Displaced responsibility is irresponsibility. "The devil made me do it" thinking does not stand up in theology, law or logic.

gd, I realize that any analogy breaks down at some point. But let's take your analogy of agitated bees. So the murderers are like agitated bees. They have no free will, no conscience, no responsibility but only animal instincts. So the murderers are not responsible because they were agitated. Well then, what if Jones was agitated? Then he is not responsible either. Nobody is responsible. Unless on...more

gd, I realize that any analogy breaks down at some point. But let's take your analogy of agitated bees. So the murderers are like agitated bees. They have no free will, no conscience, no responsibility but only animal instincts. So the murderers are not responsible because they were agitated. Well then, what if Jones was agitated? Then he is not responsible either. Nobody is responsible. Unless one brings in something like mental illness, there is a moral quandary here. Yet is it reasonable to believe that each member of the mob of murderers has mental illness?

There is a big difference between being an "agitator" and being a murderer. There is no moral equivalence or one has to remove the principle of individual responsibility and graduated justice. At the Nuremberg trials, some of the Nazis claimed, "I was just following orders." Not a viable defence. Neither is, "I was just following the mob."

If there is no freewill choice, then there is no responsibility. If there is choice, then there is responsibility. Claiming that Jones had freewill choice and the mob of murderers did not have choice is inconsistent and unreasonable. Claiming that "agitating" and murder are morally equivalent is, to me, inconsistent and unreasonable.

BTW, if Jones is an agitator, then Afghani leader Karzai is also an agitator for publicly renouncing Jones' actions when few here, and I assume, in Afghanistan, knew about Jones' actions.less

Lots of Popes here with their infallible interpretations and doctrines.

There is one incident in Scripture of book burning that I recall: “Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.” (Acts 19:18–19) But those wh...more

There is one incident in Scripture of book burning that I recall:

“Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.” (Acts 19:18–19)

But those who burned the books were those who had come to faith in Christ. They burned their books as part of renouncing their former ways. Jones was not a Muslim. If Muslims who come to Christ are so led to burn their Korans, that is their choice, though not necessarily a good choice.

If Jones is so concerned about the Koran, should he not consider moving to a Muslim country to evangelize, and let the Muslims decide what to burn after their conversion?

Unfortunately, Jones is attacking Muslims' core beliefs and not offering anything better. That is where he is missing the Gospel. He needs to decide if he wants to be a renegade politician or a Gospel preacher, because currently He is not lifting up Jesus to draw all men unto Himself.less

gd, dumbing it down? I don't think so. You didn't answer my rape analogy. Jones did a one time action. Not repeated. Thousands of miles from the murderers. They murdered innocent people. What is so difficult to understand? Why do you equate gravity, guilt and responsibility for 2 different actions by 2 unrelated groups?

gd, In the Jets example, I would think that the burner is being extremely foolish and disrespectful, but I would not establish a direct causal relationship legally between the two, or that would, in effect, be saying that the murderers are puppets of the action of the burner, and have no free will. Remember the Danish cartoons of Mohammed that were published? In effect, the fear of reprisal al...more

gd, In the Jets example, I would think that the burner is being extremely foolish and disrespectful, but I would not establish a direct causal relationship legally between the two, or that would, in effect, be saying that the murderers are puppets of the action of the burner, and have no free will.

Remember the Danish cartoons of Mohammed that were published? In effect, the fear of reprisal allowed the militants to intimidate the free press.

Yet my Christian faith is insulted constantly in the press and there are no reprisals. But my faith being insulted in no way justifies me to go murder somebody (and especially somebody that has nothing to do with the insulting)!

In effect, your position would be the same as saying that if a wife insulted her husband, then she is equally guilty of assault if the husband beat her up. Or that a woman is as guilty as her rapist because she was wearing a short skirt. And on and on.less

gd, you're dreaming in technicolor. You ARE justifying the mobs. You are saying that the individuals in the mob had NO free choice or responsibility, that they HAD to respond with murder of innocent individuals who had nothing to do with the incident because of the actions of some goofball thousands of miles away. So if somebody burns the uniform of a New York Jets player, that gives the New York ...more

gd, you're dreaming in technicolor. You ARE justifying the mobs. You are saying that the individuals in the mob had NO free choice or responsibility, that they HAD to respond with murder of innocent individuals who had nothing to do with the incident because of the actions of some goofball thousands of miles away. So if somebody burns the uniform of a New York Jets player, that gives the New York Jets fans justification to go murder innocent people, so you would say the burner and the murderers have committed equal crimes with equal guilt. Give me a break.less

gd, you're welcome to your own "reality." The only problem with common sense is that it's not too common.

gd, your pop psychology does not impress me, nor your setting yourself up as the expert on multiculturalism, nor your misplaced responsibility, nor your caving to intimidation. Murderers are responsible for their crime of murder. Jones is responsible for his disrespect and misguided grandstanding. End of argument. Please don't ever become a judge.

gd, who is defending Jones? Not most of us. He's some fringe guy getting his 15 minutes in the sun. However, the reality is that he is NOT a murderer. Equating burning a book with murdering someone would be thrown out as foolishness by legal experts. Furthermore, your own statement, "Burn all the Korans you want, but don't broadcast it" is not consistent: what you are saying that the only problem ...more

gd, who is defending Jones? Not most of us. He's some fringe guy getting his 15 minutes in the sun. However, the reality is that he is NOT a murderer. Equating burning a book with murdering someone would be thrown out as foolishness by legal experts. Furthermore, your own statement, "Burn all the Korans you want, but don't broadcast it" is not consistent: what you are saying that the only problem is that it was broadcast! I repeat, burning Korans accomplishes nothing, in my opinion, to further the Gospel.less

Troll alert: sbellam's need for attention addiction has kicked in again. If you don't feed his need, he will squawk louder and louder.

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And also denounce human stupidity inspired by atheism. hide

Yes, Jones doesn't seem to understand the Gospel. Jesus said, “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.””(John 12:32). How does burning a Koran win people to Christ? Win Muslims to Christ, then they will only be too glad to renounce the Koran themselves. It's what is behind evil that is the problem - “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, b...more

Yes, Jones doesn't seem to understand the Gospel. Jesus said, “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.””(John 12:32).

How does burning a Koran win people to Christ? Win Muslims to Christ, then they will only be too glad to renounce the Koran themselves.

It's what is behind evil that is the problem - “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” (Ephesians 6:12)less

gd, that is nonsense that it was Jone's fault. He did NOT murder innocent people. I think his decision was foolish - burning Korans doesn't win anybody to Christ as I don't think it's acting in the Spirit of Christ. But Jones did not murder anybody. It was the cowards that took innocent lives who murdered.

steve, Equating burning a book, as misguided as it is, to cold-blooded murder of innocent people is way over the top. You can replace a book. You can't replace people. Children and wives are now left without husbands, fathers and support because of bloodthirsty, cowardly reactionaries. If they wanted to murder, as reprehensible as that is, it was the pastor who burned the book, not innocent U.N. w...more

steve, Equating burning a book, as misguided as it is, to cold-blooded murder of innocent people is way over the top. You can replace a book. You can't replace people. Children and wives are now left without husbands, fathers and support because of bloodthirsty, cowardly reactionaries. If they wanted to murder, as reprehensible as that is, it was the pastor who burned the book, not innocent U.N. workers. I am very surprised that you would make a comment like that, as it seems out of character.less