You fool no one by changing the subject, Rev. But since you feel the need to post, why don't you read the evidence and explain it. By the way, Frazier gathered all those histories in an effort to disprove Genesis. Instead he showed that the biblical story of creation, the flood, and the tower of Babel underlie the details found in all the other stories. An example: long before they ever met ...more

You fool no one by changing the subject, Rev. But since you feel the need to post, why don't you read the evidence and explain it.

By the way, Frazier gathered all those histories in an effort to disprove Genesis. Instead he showed that the biblical story of creation, the flood, and the tower of Babel underlie the details found in all the other stories.

An example: long before they ever met a Jew or Christian, the native people of Tahiti had in their history how the supreme god made woman from man. The Tahitian word for the rib bone and the woman made from the rib? Ivi (pronounced Eve). Explanation?less

Johnzon, sorry I had be out this weekend, but let me get back to you now. You asked me to list the 230+ cultures that have flood stories in their histories, many bearing remarkable similarities to the story in Genesis. How about you read them for yourself (http://www.creationism.org/flood/FrazerFolkloreOT_0.htm) and then come back with your explanation how 99% of them could tell basically the same...more

Johnzon, sorry I had be out this weekend, but let me get back to you now. You asked me to list the 230+ cultures that have flood stories in their histories, many bearing remarkable similarities to the story in Genesis. How about you read them for yourself (http://www.creationism.org/flood/FrazerFolkloreOT_0.htm) and then come back with your explanation how 99% of them could tell basically the same story, unless there was a common event that started all the stories.

I call your attention to this quote from Chapter 4 on the Great Flood, just in case you don't read the book:

"...the calamity which their traditions say once befell them, destroying the whole human race, excepting one man, who landed from his canoe on a high mountain in the West. This tradition, however, was not peculiar to the Mandan tribe, for amongst one hundred and twenty different tribes that I have visited in North and South and Central America, not a tribe exists that has not related to me distinct or vague traditions of such a calamity, in which one, or three, or eight persons were saved above the waters..."
Painter and traveler, George Catlin, 1830's

Explanation?less

Over 230 cultures around the world all the same story in their history: sinful people; judgment of God/a god; worldwide flood; everyone dies except the man, his family, and the animals he took on the boat he was directed to build. In a surprising number of the stories, the number of people saved is eight, and a rainbow signals that the divine wrath is past. Many even contain the series of birds se...more

Over 230 cultures around the world all the same story in their history: sinful people; judgment of God/a god; worldwide flood; everyone dies except the man, his family, and the animals he took on the boat he was directed to build. In a surprising number of the stories, the number of people saved is eight, and a rainbow signals that the divine wrath is past. Many even contain the series of birds sent out to see if the water had gone down.

How could they all agree on so many details unless there was one event in history on which they were all based? Read the fourth chapter of Sir James Frazier's book on Genesis and you'll see for yourself: something happened which inspired all these similar stories.less

Thanks for the response. I'll take a look at his entire letter when I have a chance. Shalom.

Downtime, that's an interesting quote. Perhaps I am oversimplifying what Augustine wrote, and if I am, please help me understand him better. This is what I hear him saying: "If the world thinks it has knowledge about something that seems to go against the Bible, Christians should not talk about it, or we and the Bible will look ignorant, creating a barrier to the non-Christian's belief." Does ...more

Downtime, that's an interesting quote. Perhaps I am oversimplifying what Augustine wrote, and if I am, please help me understand him better. This is what I hear him saying: "If the world thinks it has knowledge about something that seems to go against the Bible, Christians should not talk about it, or we and the Bible will look ignorant, creating a barrier to the non-Christian's belief."

Does that get at the heart of what Augustine wrote? And you agree with him?less

Really, Rev? You just can't resist mocking someone, even when they pray for you. Sad.

Eleazar, you are exactly right. His argument is stacked so that only one conclusion is possible. That's why he won't discuss the evidence until one concedes the argument. Very much like the Pharisees.

RLB, Including Ketch22's comment that started this thread, I count SIX times people made a claim that nothing is really older than 6-10K years old (Ketch) or have asked you to explain with evidence why you assume things can be older than 6-10K years old. So far, you have ignored them. If you really want to get the discussion started, answer their questions. If all you want to do is parade your...more

RLB,
Including Ketch22's comment that started this thread, I count SIX times people made a claim that nothing is really older than 6-10K years old (Ketch) or have asked you to explain with evidence why you assume things can be older than 6-10K years old. So far, you have ignored them.

If you really want to get the discussion started, answer their questions. If all you want to do is parade your Goliath in front of everyone, we shall be forced to tell you your King Goliath has no clothes, then we'll ignore you.

Your choice.less

Wow, Rev, really? Are you really going to condemn anyone for not acting mature? Hey, kettle, the pot just called....

I agree, Prophet. Looks like he only wants to keep pushing his same argument. He doesn't want to talk plainly about what he believes or how he arrived there, whether about the age of the earth or if baptism is required for salvation.

I forgot to include this assertion of yours: "Perhaps more importantly, Jesus realizes that God's natural revelation tells man rather clearly that some things are more than a few thousand years old and that any interpretation of his special revelation otherwise is wrong." Where in the Bible do you find Jesus speaking to your assertion? You seem to be putting words in the mouth of Jesus that He ...more

I forgot to include this assertion of yours: "Perhaps more importantly, Jesus realizes that God's natural revelation tells man rather clearly that some things are more than a few thousand years old and that any interpretation of his special revelation otherwise is wrong."

Where in the Bible do you find Jesus speaking to your assertion? You seem to be putting words in the mouth of Jesus that He never said. Be careful - I don't think Jesus would appreciate that.less

RLB, you said: "Jesus recognizes that the "Goliath of GRAS" is so constructed that if its premises are true then its conclusion will follow as true therefrom." An assertion with no proof. Please prove to us Jesus recognizes this. Did Jesus tell you this?

If that is the truth, I'm sure he was being sarcastic.

Does Jesus agree with RLB? Robert, you’ll have to show me where Jesus said anything about creation of everything over millions of years. The only place I find Jesus talking about creation He says just the opposite: Matt 19:4-5 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mothe...more

Does Jesus agree with RLB? Robert, you’ll have to show me where Jesus said anything about creation of everything over millions of years. The only place I find Jesus talking about creation He says just the opposite:

Matt 19:4-5
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?”

In addition to quoting from Genesis 1 and 2, Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as real people. He also said that the Father created them “at the beginning,” not millions of years after the beginning.

Would Jesus agree with you about creation over millions of years? NO.less

Savagewords, in answer to your speculations below on the meaning of "Goliath of GRAS": someone looked it up when RLB first started posting here. In great humility he gave it the name "Gene Robert Argument Supreme."

Well said, Believer. I wasn't trying to upstage you. I guess you posted while I was typing, and I didn't see your answer until my screen was refreshed. Shalom!

Here’s a quick Hebrew lesson on the word “yom” translated into English as “day.” Like our word “day,” “yom” has a range of meanings: the hours of sunlight; a 24-hour period; or an indefinite period of time (e.g., the day of the Lord). Most theistic evolutionists seize on this last meaning in trying to squeeze millions of years into the Bible. However, “yom” is used with a ...more

Here’s a quick Hebrew lesson on the word “yom” translated into English as “day.” Like our word “day,” “yom” has a range of meanings: the hours of sunlight; a 24-hour period; or an indefinite period of time (e.g., the day of the Lord). Most theistic evolutionists seize on this last meaning in trying to squeeze millions of years into the Bible.

However, “yom” is used with a number 410 times in the OT, and each time it refers to a literal day. You wouldn’t interpret “he arose on the third day” to mean an era or indefinite period of time; it has to mean he arose during the third 24-hour period.

In the same way, whenever “yom” is used with the words we translate as “evening” or “morning,” it always means a literal 24-hour day. A Hebrew would never have said, “It was the morning of the day of the Lord.” “The morning (or evening) of that day” means a literal 24-hour day. Evening is used with “yom” 23 times, and morning is used with “yom” 23 times, and in each case, the only possible meaning of “yom” is a literal 24-hour day.

Now, both are used together (“evening and morning”) 38 times, and in each case the meaning is obviously a literal 24-hour period.

So do any of these temporal markers occur in Genesis 1? YES! All of them, and they are used together. Therefore the only possible meaning “yom” can have in this context is literal 24-hour periods.

Sorry I can’t stay; I must eat lunch before my next class begins.less

Those you call "adversaries," I call my brothers and sisters in Christ, because they, like me, are under the blood of Christ for their salvation. Perhaps you should check out the Bible - it tells us who our adversary truly is. But you probably don't have time; seems all you want to do is argue with and shoot down members of the Body of Christ.

Rev said, "Those that bear false witness will have to answer to God for their lies. And to pathologically repeat specific lies even after having been told about the lies is very telling about ethics and the degree to which God's prohibitions regarding lying are respected. Does God accept an insanity defense? Is lying for God OK? Is making childish personal attacks on other posters in violation of ...more

Rev said, "Those that bear false witness will have to answer to God for their lies. And to pathologically repeat specific lies even after having been told about the lies is very telling about ethics and the degree to which God's prohibitions regarding lying are respected. Does God accept an insanity defense? Is lying for God OK? Is making childish personal attacks on other posters in violation of TOS OK with God? "

You're exactly right, Rev. We actually agree on this.

Baty said that Prophet and Mathetes gave "implicit endorsement" to Believer's idea that Baty is really a trouble-making poster from the past under a new name.

Mathetes pointed out that he had specifically disagreed with Believer on that idea, saying that Baty was NOT the same person under a new screen name.

Baty NEVER repented of his lie, even after it was pointed out to him. Instead, he began to belittle Mathetes, calling him "blind" and other disparaging names. These violate the Terms of Service, yet you, Rev, have yet to call him on it. Thus you show your own double standard: if the poster speaks harshly of someone you see as an ally, you point it out and call them on it; but if the poster speaks harshly of those who disagree with you, you remain silent.

You won't convince anyone of your moral uprightness and indignation as long as you maintain your double standard.less