Mormon Defender Skirts Christian Question; Instead Calls for Unity

russellwades »

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Have I been ousted from this site?

'Mormon President' Film Draws Ties Between LDS Founder, Romney

russellwades »

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Just as an FYI, the "untold" story about the secret marriages is a ruse--that story has been dealt with in numerous venues ad nauseum in Mormon scholarly presses and conferences. Daynes, MOre Wives than One; Compton, Sacred Loneliness; Barringer-Gordon, The Mormon Question, Hardy, Sacred Covenant, and so on. There are even more articles, far more than I can list here.

As an orthodox and educated Latter Day Saint, I know full well of the negative accusations the film will make and know full well of the laurels it will give in regards to Joseph Smith. This filmmaker will be sadly disappointed to see that his "big news" is old news.

Baptist Seminary Head Highlights Mormons' Self-Contradictory Church Claims

russellwades »

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:50 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

"By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the purpose of the atonement was to bring resurrection and immortality to all people, regardless of whether they receive Christ by faith. Christ’s atonement is only a partial basis for worthiness and eternal life, which also requires obedience to all the commands of the Mormon church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals"

Mormons undeniably do not believe faith alone can provide salvation. Otherwise, baptism would not be a requirement for salvation. Jesus Christ would be acknowledged as God in the flesh. Moreover, within Mormonism, the attainment of certain Temple Rights would not have to be met in order to receive entrance into the highest level of heaven. Still, why would there be 3 different "heavens" if Faith alone was enough? Read the biblical writing's of the Apostles. None claimed themselves to be any more worthy of salcvation than a beggar, cripple, Pharisees, Jews, or Romans. Once Again, the Apostle Paul wrote, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

This is a disappointingly erroneous analysis, based on a caricature which itself is based on genuine misinformation. In the spirit of fair intellectual inquiry, I suggest that many of you stop asking your pastors or your Protestant neighbors what Mormons believe and start asking ARTICULATE and well-educated Mormons. Of course, this will require that you actually WANT to know--something that not everyone I have met actually wants. But I extend my thanks to joze14rock for succeeding in some regards.

On DannyPoo's third post and summathes post:
Claiming that we do not really accept Christ's atonement is probably the most pernicious of the inaccuracies propagated here. It SIMPLY IS NOT CORRECT. Read any of our standard works: the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price. I could spout hundreds of verses to you from all of them that maintain our belief in the CENTRALITY of Christ to our theology. I hope that those who claim this do so out of ignorance and not merely out of a desire to twist the truth for social or political gain.

We do not do these ordinances/commands because we just "feel" like, because we somehow think that the "trust not in the arm of flesh" dictum does not apply to us. I do them because I have followed the instructions of the Bible and have sought to receive what flesh and blood could not tell me, that in participating in these ordinances, I am following Christ's will for me (see Matt. 16:15-19 and John 14:26 for how I believe we receive a knowledge of God). Then again, I might just be a brainwashed Mormon who THINKS he believes these things; after all, you really CAN'T trust us Mormons to be sincere. We just want to ratchet up the numbers :)

Re: the quotes cited by DannyPoo, these quotations have been quite clearly taken out of context, at least to anyone who cares to read the sources.

One by one:

John Taylor--if one takes this statement as indicative of our view towards Christ, one is thorougly ignorant of LDS history. Who was it that drove the Latter Day Saints from their homes, who tarred and feather Joseph in Hiram, OH, who did the most un-Christian of activities? The Christianity of the 19th CENTURY. Christianity has changed tremendously in those 150 years. Preachers as a whole no longer wink at slavery (which easily qualifies as the devil's work, I maintain). The plate tectonics of Christianity have changed radically, and if you fail to see that, then I seriously wonder at your ability to engage in critical analysis.

Spencer W. Kimball--An even worse case of misrepresentation. Only paragraphs later, Kimball maintains that "however good a person's works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else's sins." Furthermore, it should be clear from the text that Kimball's idea of works simply comes to repentance, something that is reiterated throughout the scriptures. Later in the chapter, Kimball maintains that we must submit ourselves to Christ; after all, he stands at the door and knocks. While Kimball cites 2 Ne. 25:23 (ye are saved by grace after all you can do), this verse is clarified by Alma 26:22 (all we can do is repent of our sins and come unto Christ). In other words, if you're going to attempt to incriminate us, at least find bona fide quotes that hold up your criticisms. As it stands, all you seem to do is cite vague quotes out of context.

Joseph Smith--It is remarkable to me the depths researchers bow to in order to smear and caricature. Joseph Smith later said: "The fundamental principles of our religion...that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." (Documentary History of the Church, 3:30). Joseph also maintained repeatedly that "we don't ask any people to throw away any good they have got; we only ask them to come and get more. What if all the world should embrace this Gospel? They would then see eye to eye, and the blessings of God would be poured out upon the people, which is the desire of my whole soul." Attempts to portray Joseph as a dogmatic bigot generally seem to be seizing upon one phrase as though it were indicative of the man; that's not intellectually responsible. That's not becoming of those who claim to be seekers of the truth, as I as

Baptist Seminary Head Highlights Mormons' Self-Contradictory Church Claims

russellwades »

Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

I am afraid many of Dr. Mohler's assumptions about the Mormon faith are erroneous. As an educated and orthodox Latter Day Saint, it does not matter to me if Dr. Mohler claims to have "studied" Mormonism; would we believe a Holocaust survivor or a Holocaust scholar?

I do not want to burden this blog, so I will confine my remarks to Mohler's claims re: the Book of Mormon's conception of Jesus. To believe that Jesus as the BOM depicts him is at odds with the Biblical Jesus is, quite simply incorrect. To try pointing out the citations supporting Christ's divine birth, his ministry and his atoning sacrifice would be like attempting to draw the Cistene chapel on a piece of scratch paper with a broken pencil; there is simply too much.

Please see Mosiah chpts. 3-5, 2 Ne. chpt. 2, chpt. 9, chpts. 11-14 chpt. 25, Jacob 4, Alma 36-37, 40-42, 3 Ne. chpts. 11-29, Moroni chpt. 10, and the LIST GOES ON. I defy anyone to find a single verse in that book that says anything but the most exalted language about the Son of God, the babe borne at Bethlehem, and our Savior and Redeemer.

Those who believe that Mormons do not accept the Christ of the Bible need to GET EDUCATED, whether they have a Ph.D. or work as a day laborer. Just because a professor, even a highly regarded one, argues something about another religion does not mean that what s/he says has any semblance of reality to it.