ilat - the fact is, God did stand before man in Jesus Christ. How many times does God need to stand before man before he'll believe?

Ilat - here's a tip for you and other atheists if you want to convert us: don't call our faith a 'scam'. And I'm glad you volunteer and such, but Christ said we know how to do good things; we just refuse to honor God and have a corrupt nature: "What man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If y...more

Ilat - here's a tip for you and other atheists if you want to convert us: don't call our faith a 'scam'. And I'm glad you volunteer and such, but Christ said we know how to do good things; we just refuse to honor God and have a corrupt nature: "What man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!" (Matt. 7:9-11)

danielsmw: the most loving thing a person can do is warn someone when they're facing a sure catastrophe. You've been warned.less

I remember when the atheists starting these ads, they swore up and down they would not be disrespectful or demeaning. Right... In one way it saddens me to see this type of behavior, but I also love how people who swear their is no God and that the Bible is bogus live their lives exactly the way the Bible says they do: "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life ...more

I remember when the atheists starting these ads, they swore up and down they would not be disrespectful or demeaning. Right... In one way it saddens me to see this type of behavior, but I also love how people who swear their is no God and that the Bible is bogus live their lives exactly the way the Bible says they do: "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so." (Romans 8:6-7). Some sweet irony there...less

A very dangerous article IMO. The Scriptures show that God takes a very dim view of syncretism, which is what this woman is promoting. Using political correct terms such as "multi-cultural" doesn't change what is really being communicated. It's like Paul wrote: “What partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial...more

A very dangerous article IMO. The Scriptures show that God takes a very dim view of syncretism, which is what this woman is promoting. Using political correct terms such as "multi-cultural" doesn't change what is really being communicated. It's like Paul wrote: “What partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial?” (2 Corinthians 6:14–15). Just use a little word substitution and see how this sounds: "Yes, I know yoga originated from and is a physical form of Baal worship, but I'm sure God blesses the practice in how I do it..."less

Anyone who thinks stories like this puts a bullet into the truthfulness of God's Word or Genesis in particular needs to realize that there are at least nine orthodox views - 2 young earth and 7 old earth - of how God created everything, which is described in the first few chapters in Genesis. I just finished teaching through a series where I briefly covered these different interpretations. You can...more

Anyone who thinks stories like this puts a bullet into the truthfulness of God's Word or Genesis in particular needs to realize that there are at least nine orthodox views - 2 young earth and 7 old earth - of how God created everything, which is described in the first few chapters in Genesis. I just finished teaching through a series where I briefly covered these different interpretations. You can find the slideshow here: http://www.slideshare.net/schumacr/origins-interpretations-of-genesis.less

Ketch & DP: Look, I get your objections to irresistible grace and election. It doesn't seem fair. I get that. Paul anticipated this response on our part and responds to it this way: “You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” ” (Romans 9:19). He's the Potter; He does what He wills. What the Father wills is a Bride for His Son. And He's choosing t...more

Ketch & DP: Look, I get your objections to irresistible grace and election. It doesn't seem fair. I get that. Paul anticipated this response on our part and responds to it this way: “You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” ” (Romans 9:19). He's the Potter; He does what He wills.

What the Father wills is a Bride for His Son. And He's choosing that Bride just as first century Jewish fathers chose brides for their son. Jesus clearly teaches this here: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. . . .This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:37–40). Notice the order - the Father gives, the Bride WILL come, and is safe and secure with the groom. Does "all" mean everyone? Unless you believe in universalism, the answer is no.

We see the same statement a few verses later: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:44). No one 'can' come - not 'may', but 'can' - which speaks to inability. And who does the Father draw? Everyone? Again, that can't be. Only the elect. And Jesus ends by saying the same thing as vv. 37-40: the elect are secure and have eternal life (i.e. raised up on the last day).

Again, I get it - it rubs us the wrong way. But there's no good way to wiggle out of it. It's there.

One clarification on irresistible grace - a better term is 'efficient' or 'effective' grace, meaning God accomplishes His purpose. In other words, His purpose doesn't fail and can't be thwarted. The elect come willingly after being drawn because their will has been spiritually restored. Once an unbeliever has their eyes opened, who wouldn't come willingly?less

DP - Nice post, however I wasn't linking election to my post about knowledge at all. You implied Paul meant knowledge in general makes arrogant, and I pointed out Paul in no way meant knowledge about God and His ways. Instead, he makes clear we're not to be simple-minded where doctrine is concerned and to be solidly grounded in it. Your 1 Cor. 1:17 verse is along the same lines. Unlike the Greek r...more

DP - Nice post, however I wasn't linking election to my post about knowledge at all. You implied Paul meant knowledge in general makes arrogant, and I pointed out Paul in no way meant knowledge about God and His ways. Instead, he makes clear we're not to be simple-minded where doctrine is concerned and to be solidly grounded in it. Your 1 Cor. 1:17 verse is along the same lines. Unlike the Greek rhetorics in that day, Paul would use no theatrics and word-smithing to win new converts. That was the monergistic work of the Spirit and not the work of clever vocal appeals.

In regard to your Arminian pillar verse of 2 Pet. 3:9, Piper deals with that pretty well here: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/resources/are-there-two-wills-in-god.

Lastly, I disagree with your assertion that God does not elect by exclusion. For example, even non-reformed theologians admit the main theme of Genesis is 'election'. God elects the pagan Abram, chooses Jacob and not Esau before they had done anything good or bad (cf. Rom. 9:11), and so on. A proper exegesis of the 'golden chain' in Rom. 8:29-30 shows the same thing.less

DP - No, Paul isn't wrong when he says 'knowledge makes arrogant'. But what kind of 'knowledge'? In the preceding phrase "we all have knowledge" is enclosed by quotation marks in some Bibles to show this was a Corinthian maxim. They prided themselves on being smart from a secular/worldly perspective. Such a thing was sought after in the Greco-Roman world, which is why Paul admits earlier in the sa...more

DP - No, Paul isn't wrong when he says 'knowledge makes arrogant'. But what kind of 'knowledge'? In the preceding phrase "we all have knowledge" is enclosed by quotation marks in some Bibles to show this was a Corinthian maxim. They prided themselves on being smart from a secular/worldly perspective. Such a thing was sought after in the Greco-Roman world, which is why Paul admits earlier in the same epistle that Greeks seek wisdom (cf. 1 Cor. 1:22). But I can't imagine someone coming to Paul, saying "I want more knowledge of God and his teachings", and being told "You don't want that!". To the contrary, Paul urges his readers to gain in-depth knowledge of God (cf. Col. 1:9). But worldly wisdom and knowledge? That's different. You see the same thing today with folks like Richard Dawkins and others who think they're pretty smart, but actually they know nothing at all.

What I've been trying to say is deep knowledge of God and His doctrines, and love (both for God and people), aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'll say it again: Far from the "we're saved and you're not" label - when you really grasp reformed teaching, it is the most humbling experience of your life.less

Norman - I think lepperw makes the point. However, if more data is needed, simply reference the various hostilities directed toward Christianity and the Bible in the US, and then compare the response to the one that came against the Florida church that was attempting the 'burn a Koran' day.

If you think they're both the same then I have a empirical experiment I'd like you to perform: (1) Post a cartoon mocking Mohammad and the Koran; (2) Post another cartoon mocking Jesus and the Bible; (3) See which group comes after your head.

I cover the Islamic depiction of Jesus (as well as other religions) in this presentation: http://www.slideshare.net/schumacr/counterfeit-christs-the-counterfeit-christ-of-false-religions.

DP - the best reply I can make to you is from C.S. Lewis: "God wants a child's heart, but a grown up's head". So using your logic, we're prideful when we 'understand', and that's bad. So good must be when we're humble and don't understand? Hmmmm. And yet, Jesus wants us to understand: “After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. ” (Matthew 15:10).

Exactly! This is what Jonathan Edwards drives at in his famous "Freedom of the Will" work. Edwards says, "True religion, in part, consists in holy affections." The miracle of the new birth is not that the Christian does different things, the miracle is the Christian now *wants* to do different things. The will is changed.

Ketch - I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by your first statement. Yes, God is deeper than us and we know in part as Paul said (1 Cor. 13:12), but that doesn't mean there aren't some things you can know for sure. You sound dangerously like some in the Emerging Church who say we can't know what the Bible means. And you keep talking about 'free will'. Who told you there is no free will in ...more

Ketch - I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by your first statement. Yes, God is deeper than us and we know in part as Paul said (1 Cor. 13:12), but that doesn't mean there aren't some things you can know for sure. You sound dangerously like some in the Emerging Church who say we can't know what the Bible means. And you keep talking about 'free will'. Who told you there is no free will in reformed thinking/Calvinism? Certainly not the teachers of the Reformation. Have you read them or only what others have said about their teachings?less

I will also add this. Some have posted and said this discussion is useless, etc. I would disagree. On the back of one of my historical theology textbooks (John Hannah's "Our Legacy") is an excellent question that has always driven me to learn as much as I can about God: "How can you live out your faith without truly understanding it?" Good question...

waltman - what you describe is the very first part of reformed thought or Calvinism called Total Depravity. Whether you want to go further is up to you and whether God is leading you as this point to learn more about the debate. I think of myself as a Biblical Christian rather than a Calvinist, so I wouldn't worry about affixing a label onto yourself. However, if you want to see the core tenants o...more

waltman - what you describe is the very first part of reformed thought or Calvinism called Total Depravity. Whether you want to go further is up to you and whether God is leading you as this point to learn more about the debate. I think of myself as a Biblical Christian rather than a Calvinist, so I wouldn't worry about affixing a label onto yourself. However, if you want to see the core tenants of reformed thought, visit: http://www.monergism.com/our_faith.php.less

Ketch - you write, "smarter men than you, guided by the Holy Spirit, come to a different conclusion regarding election ... and vice versa" Why would the Holy Spirit lead men in two different directions - one towards unconditional election and one away from it? Seems to me the Holy Spirit's job according to Scripture is to guide men into truth, not logically contradictory positions. Can you explain...more

Ketch - you write, "smarter men than you, guided by the Holy Spirit, come to a different conclusion regarding election ... and vice versa" Why would the Holy Spirit lead men in two different directions - one towards unconditional election and one away from it? Seems to me the Holy Spirit's job according to Scripture is to guide men into truth, not logically contradictory positions. Can you explain?less

DP - First, it's "Calvinism". Second, to say that the great teachers alive today who are reformed (e.g. MacArthur, Sproul, Mohler, Begg, etc.) not to mention all the reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and others who built on the work of Augustine are somehow not concerned with the gospel and need to be retaught so they're in line with your thinking leaves me at a loss for words. Yes, and Paul, of c...more

DP - First, it's "Calvinism". Second, to say that the great teachers alive today who are reformed (e.g. MacArthur, Sproul, Mohler, Begg, etc.) not to mention all the reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and others who built on the work of Augustine are somehow not concerned with the gospel and need to be retaught so they're in line with your thinking leaves me at a loss for words. Yes, and Paul, of course - the poor soul wasted his time arguing about election in Romans 9-11, inspired by the Holy Spirit, of course. He should have focused on something else according to you and also revise most of the work in his epistles. Your continued red herring arguments make it clear there's no reason to continue this. Peace, over and out.less

DP- I'm not sure where you're getting that you can't have love and yet be mature and educated about the truths concerning God. Why do you see them mutually exclusive? I think we're told to love with our heart AND mind, yes? Prophet and DP - are you saying Priscilla and Aquila wasted their time educating Apollos? Are you both unaware that much of Paul's epistles corrected the early church on do...more

DP- I'm not sure where you're getting that you can't have love and yet be mature and educated about the truths concerning God. Why do you see them mutually exclusive? I think we're told to love with our heart AND mind, yes?

Prophet and DP - are you saying Priscilla and Aquila wasted their time educating Apollos? Are you both unaware that much of Paul's epistles corrected the early church on doctrinal disputes and misunderstandings? Does doctrine not matter to you? For example, Christ's virgin birth - an important doctrine to salvation or not, and why?

We're commanded to grow in knowledge and in fact rebuked if we don't (see the end result the author drives to?): “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. ” (Hebrews 5:12–14)less

Ketch - no offense brother, but you've got some askew teachings there (the book of Life, children being spiritually alive, etc.) No explicit statements in the Bible speak about such things and some directly oppose what you state as Kone as pointed out. Not sure if you're arriving at these things on your own or are being taught, but I'd recommend a good study Bible such as the Ryrie Study Bible, Ma...more

Ketch - no offense brother, but you've got some askew teachings there (the book of Life, children being spiritually alive, etc.) No explicit statements in the Bible speak about such things and some directly oppose what you state as Kone as pointed out. Not sure if you're arriving at these things on your own or are being taught, but I'd recommend a good study Bible such as the Ryrie Study Bible, MacArthur Study Bible, ESV Study Bible, etc. They all have some sound commentary on these and other matters.less