lpepperw is exactly right. I'd love to see these same atheists put ads up challenging the existence of Allah during Ramadan either here on in a Muslim country. But that would take courage. Much easier to attack Christianity and Christ. And why during Christmas and Easter? To make the atheists feel better during the holidays? Nope. Just another example of man's rebellion against God. Sad.

de-vi-ant: "deviating or departing from the norm; characterized by deviation; a person or thing that deviates or departs markedly from the accepted norm." Sorry, but homosexual and lesbian behavior meets the above dictionary definition quite well. It's interesting how homosexual supporters jeer at Christians who 'push their opinions on other people' but don't feel the same when Christian ...more

de-vi-ant: "deviating or departing from the norm; characterized by deviation; a person or thing that deviates or departs markedly from the accepted norm."

Sorry, but homosexual and lesbian behavior meets the above dictionary definition quite well.

It's interesting how homosexual supporters jeer at Christians who 'push their opinions on other people' but don't feel the same when Christian people like Vidala have in-your-face lesbians taunting them. But we're not surprised at the double standard or the rage that comes against us because sin always demands approval. Or, as J. Budziszewski put it so well in his book The Revenge of Conscience, "those who rationalize their sins find it to be so much work that they require other people to support them in it."less

Bigot - "But why homosexuality? I have asked dozens of people and all anyone can say is 'because god says so'. If that's the best anyone can do, then I don't see how anyone can honestly believe it is a sin." A very fair question. And I agree with you that there must be more of any answer than 'just because'. However, (and believe me when I say I mean no offense to you with this statement) s...more

Bigot -

"But why homosexuality? I have asked dozens of people and all anyone can say is 'because god says so'. If that's the best anyone can do, then I don't see how anyone can honestly believe it is a sin."

A very fair question. And I agree with you that there must be more of any answer than 'just because'. However, (and believe me when I say I mean no offense to you with this statement) since you are either unwilling or unable to understand how I've shown your position on Brookstone to be faulty and why believing homosexuality is a sin vs. the KKK are entirely different stances, I doubt you'll be willing to objectively evaluate true answers to this question. That being my belief, I have decided not to write what I had intended in this space, but will instead point you to a presentation I did entitled "What's Wrong with Gay Marriage" that you can find here: http://www.slideshare.net/schumacr/whats-wrong-with-gay-marriage-presentation. I hope it helps.less

homosexual man - I understand your last statements to me. Gandhi is famous for saying "I like their Christ; I don't like the Christians". As a believer, I hate to hear such words, but I recognize that they're true sometimes. David Kinnaman's book UnChristian chronicles the Barna Group's findings on what secular people think of Christians and their number one complaint is that Christians don't ...more

homosexual man -

I understand your last statements to me. Gandhi is famous for saying "I like their Christ; I don't like the Christians". As a believer, I hate to hear such words, but I recognize that they're true sometimes. David Kinnaman's book UnChristian chronicles the Barna Group's findings on what secular people think of Christians and their number one complaint is that Christians don't represent Christ well to the world. A disappointing and scathing rebuke, but one that's correct at times.

My friend, I don't wish to anger you when I say this, but based on Scripture, I must tell you I believe homosexual behavior to be sinful. But then so is lying, lustful thoughts, anger, stealing, disobedience to parents, taking God's name in vain, and on and on - all of which I am personally guilty of. The great thing is I have been justified in the sight of God because of Christ's death, and day by day, I am being sanctified of the sins I've just described. I recognize them as wrong and depend on the Holy Spirit to help me repent and live differently. It's all a matter of His grace and strength.

I am not sure if you're a 'reader' but if you would like to read an author who will show you the love of Christ, give you the truth of Scripture, and describe the glorious intellectual foundation upon which Christianity rests, pick up any of Francis Schaeffer's books.less

homosexual man - I read the article link you posted. I can't speak for all believers on this forum, but from me, my apologies that such work exists. I can only ask you to consider Augustine's words: "do not judge a philosophy by its abuse" when looking at Christianity and the material that is contained on that web site. John 8 contains the story of the adulterous woman who was brought to J...more

homosexual man -

I read the article link you posted. I can't speak for all believers on this forum, but from me, my apologies that such work exists. I can only ask you to consider Augustine's words: "do not judge a philosophy by its abuse" when looking at Christianity and the material that is contained on that web site.

John 8 contains the story of the adulterous woman who was brought to Jesus, and I believe we all know the end of that story. I do not believe the outcome would have been any different had a homosexual or lesbian been thrown at the feet of Christ instead of the woman the leaders used to bait Him. Love and respect the person, but ask that the sin be repented of.

I don't want you harmed; I want you to come into a saving relationship with Christ.less

Bigot - "obviously I would say it is wrong to discriminate no matter what the rule says" Gotcha! This is *exactly* what I kept trying to get you to admit earlier. Since your "because they have a policy" argument is now gone, where now is your foundation for determining matters such as these? Also, thanks for admitting to having a double standard. As G. K. Chesterton said, "Behind every doub...more

Bigot -

"obviously I would say it is wrong to discriminate no matter what the rule says"

Gotcha! This is *exactly* what I kept trying to get you to admit earlier. Since your "because they have a policy" argument is now gone, where now is your foundation for determining matters such as these? Also, thanks for admitting to having a double standard. As G. K. Chesterton said, "Behind every double standard is a single hidden agenda."

I'm afraid I have to give up in trying to get you to understand the logic 101 error of 'faulty analogy' you continue to make with your KKK argument; I've attempted three times now to get you to understand. However, since you're so committed to non-discrimination and like the poor KKK analogy , answer me this: Should the NAACP be forced to hire practicing KKK members? How about the Jewish League being forced to hire passionate members of Hamas or neo-Nazis?

Again, my thanks to you bigot for openly showcasing what we've all been driving at here.less

Bigot - I'm afraid I'm at a loss to have you understand the difference between a KKK member and myself who believes I have the right to say homosexual behavior is a sinful and immoral lifestyle without the fear of punishment. You continue to conflate "is" and "do" when it comes to matters of morals. Since you continue to dodge the issue of right and wrong and feel any policy or law makes thing...more

Bigot - I'm afraid I'm at a loss to have you understand the difference between a KKK member and myself who believes I have the right to say homosexual behavior is a sinful and immoral lifestyle without the fear of punishment. You continue to conflate "is" and "do" when it comes to matters of morals.

Since you continue to dodge the issue of right and wrong and feel any policy or law makes things right, let me spin this around a bit: if the government said it's OK to discriminate against homosexuals and Brookstone had a policy saying the same, would you say that position is 'right' or 'wrong'?

"Nobody likes to think of themselves as a bigot".

Tell me: how exactly do you feel about being a bigot?less

Fabulous news!

Bigot - unfortunately, you continue to err. You think a 'policy' equates to ethical and moral truth, but it doesn't. I could have a policy with my company that OK's and encourages the viewing of porn and extramarital affairs, but that doesn't mean it's morally right. You also forget that Germany tried just such a stance with its actions at the Nuremberg trials and were met with the judge's famous...more

Bigot - unfortunately, you continue to err. You think a 'policy' equates to ethical and moral truth, but it doesn't. I could have a policy with my company that OK's and encourages the viewing of porn and extramarital affairs, but that doesn't mean it's morally right. You also forget that Germany tried just such a stance with its actions at the Nuremberg trials and were met with the judge's famous reply: "But gentlemen, is there not a law above our laws?" Error #1 for you.

Error #2: you continue to conflate human beings and their actions. In the eyes of God, all human beings are equal, however not all moral behavior is. I don't view homosexuals as having any less worth than me from an intrinsic nature (and therefore they are not 'inferior), but I do view the homosexual lifestyle as sinful. It is something that can be repented of in the same way that the sins that trouble me can be removed.

Lastly, I'm not driven nuts by all this. As I said before I am actually (no sarcasm here at all) very grateful to you for expressing your opinions because, with each post, you continue to demonstrate the very attitude and thoughts that we claim homosexual advocates hold, but are hesitant to openly articulate. It's what started this thread, so in a very real way, you have helped us a lot.less

Bigot - So now I'm equated with the KKK? The ad hominems just keep coming. Do you really need me to help you with what you said? Your statements are in agreement with the arguments we've made as to Christian's speech being smothered because a 'protected class' doesn't like the Christian's opinion about it. What don't you understand about your position? The overarching issue, I believe,...more

Bigot -

So now I'm equated with the KKK? The ad hominems just keep coming.

Do you really need me to help you with what you said? Your statements are in agreement with the arguments we've made as to Christian's speech being smothered because a 'protected class' doesn't like the Christian's opinion about it. What don't you understand about your position?

The overarching issue, I believe, is you and the others conflate the physical and the moral realms. There's a huge difference in calling a Chinese prostitute a racial slur and telling that same Chinese prostitute that prostitution is immoral. The latter is what Peter Vidala (when pushed) did and the latter is what you feel justified in silencing.

Again, when are you going to change your nickname?less

NoBigots - "I have no problem with this guy expressing an opinion, or expressing the opinion that something is inherently bad. But if the something in question is a protected class of U.S. citizens, then it becomes wrong." BINGO! Thank you for admitting something that others who back the hate crime bill believe and desire, but won't openly articulate. You've just confirmed what we've been...more

NoBigots -

"I have no problem with this guy expressing an opinion, or expressing the opinion that something is inherently bad. But if the something in question is a protected class of U.S. citizens, then it becomes wrong."

BINGO! Thank you for admitting something that others who back the hate crime bill believe and desire, but won't openly articulate. You've just confirmed what we've been discussing and predicting will happen with this bill or a sibling that will follow. And I appreciate you also saying there are certain US citizens who have more 'protection' than others. Many thanks!

Also: please use a different nickname because your current one is self-defeating. You're being a bigot against those who you say are bigots.less

MickeyC - Unfortunately, like garageguy, you're missing the point about Peter Vidala. The man, using his free speech rights, stated an opinion in a conversation after the lesbian manager wouldn't stop bringing the subject up. If you're trying to say that a 'policy' can circumvent a person expressing an opinion, then you've confirmed the fears we have about the hate crime law being used to do to t...more

MickeyC - Unfortunately, like garageguy, you're missing the point about Peter Vidala. The man, using his free speech rights, stated an opinion in a conversation after the lesbian manager wouldn't stop bringing the subject up. If you're trying to say that a 'policy' can circumvent a person expressing an opinion, then you've confirmed the fears we have about the hate crime law being used to do to the same to other Christians. However, you didn't answer the question: What happened to Vidala - was it right or wrong ('policies' aside)?less

Garageguy - Oh, Brookstone has a "policy" and that makes it right! I see. Kind of like the government having a law and using it to punish Christians.

For those of you who think Christian's free speech rights won't be violated by this or similar laws, tell that to Peter Vidala who was fired by Brookstone for telling a lesbian work peer that homosexuality is wrong. Was what happened to him wrong or right? Full story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572862,00.html

rj78 - yes indeed, Matt. 23 primarily deals with Christ's rebuke against the religious leaders of His day, but I would respectfully say you are omitting the third step in Biblical hermeneutics, which is 'application' (observation-interpretation-application). Do you think today's Church might have people who legalistically perform their duties (e.g. tithe) and yet fail to show mercy and love to tho...more

rj78 - yes indeed, Matt. 23 primarily deals with Christ's rebuke against the religious leaders of His day, but I would respectfully say you are omitting the third step in Biblical hermeneutics, which is 'application' (observation-interpretation-application). Do you think today's Church might have people who legalistically perform their duties (e.g. tithe) and yet fail to show mercy and love to those around them (vs. 23). Or maybe others who work hard at looking righteous on the surface, yet live a different life when out of public view (vs. 25)? This is where the all important step of application comes in; else, if we followed your stance, we could just take out a razor blade, cut Matt. 23 from our Bibles, and not lose a thing when it comes to us today.

Lastly, I would argue you fail to make the distinction between how a pastor works from the pulpit with their congregation vs. one-on-one. In a church the size of Southeast, Kyle can't possibly know everyone who needs to hear an exhortation on being real, hence his message. But working one-on-one with someone? That's when a pastor works to gently turn a heart back from sin to God.less

mike - what I was trying to show you was that Kyle didn't need correcting: you merely have to watch the first 3-5 minutes of his message to see that he says he's a sinner just like the rest of us. If God required perfect pastors and teachers, every church position would go unfilled. And far from picking the easy verses, Kyle tackles some tough territory as he teaches through Matthew 23, which is a...more

mike - what I was trying to show you was that Kyle didn't need correcting: you merely have to watch the first 3-5 minutes of his message to see that he says he's a sinner just like the rest of us. If God required perfect pastors and teachers, every church position would go unfilled. And far from picking the easy verses, Kyle tackles some tough territory as he teaches through Matthew 23, which is avoided by many because it's not something folks like to hear. Lastly, your reference to Mal. 2:7 is, I believe, off the mark if you want to use it in this context; it's more of a praise than a rebuke where this message is concerned.less

sbirch - you're exactly right! And for mike and rj78: read through Matthew 23, which is Kyle's text for his series, and then tell me how Jesus never talked tough when the crowd needed it. And believe me, today's Church needs it! Pastors who aren't afraid to preach and teach such truths need to be run to, not away from.

mike - instead of criticizing Kyle, why don't you watch the opening minutes of his message and then come back and apologize: http://www.southeastchristian.org/sermons/?id=808

Part of Steve Turner's poem "Creed" speaks to Mohler's point pretty well: We believe that all religions are basically the same At least the one we read was They all believe in love and goodness They only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

Can't remember who it came from, but someone said that if India is the most religious country in the world and Sweden the least, then America has certainly become a nation of Indians ruled by Swedes. "When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, But when a wicked man rules, people groan."(Proverbs 29:2)