And why do they leave the Church/God? Because they once were saved and now are not? No. “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ” (1 John 2:19)

Prophet - First, I owe you an apology. When I look back on the words I chose to describe your take on reformed thinking, I can see how they appear insulting. My problem is I have been very head's down in some academic work and the particular words I chose are used frequently by some of my prof's to describe other's and my work that hasn't gone as far at they would like. So to me, they're normal, b...more

Prophet - First, I owe you an apology. When I look back on the words I chose to describe your take on reformed thinking, I can see how they appear insulting. My problem is I have been very head's down in some academic work and the particular words I chose are used frequently by some of my prof's to describe other's and my work that hasn't gone as far at they would like. So to me, they're normal, but to others I can see how they don't appear that way. My apologies.

Next, what I was really trying to get across is that your take on reformed thinking (as well as others who have posted) is *exactly* what mine used to be. And I mean EXACTLY. I grew up under arminianism and was taught moderate Calvinism during some of my coursework (which is really just polished arminianism). But when I dug into reformed teaching myself and understood key doctrines like total/radical depravity, I saw the truths of what the reformers said and taught. I also understood - just as Kone says - there is no 'robotic' aspect to reformed teaching at all. When a person is quickened by the Spirit, they freely choose God, but before they were unable (cf. Rom. 3:10-12; 1 Cor. 2:14).

I'd recommend to everyone who is interested in learning more to start with Sproul's book "What is Reformed Theology?" Peace...less

KoneWone2 is dead on correct. Look, I grew up under Arminianism and was taught that method of theology for 25+ years. Like many others, all I knew about reformed theology was what those who opposed it said. In seminary, my main prof's were moderate Calvinists, which really is just a polished form of Arminianism. But when I finally started to read actual reformed thinkers, and did a real study of ...more

KoneWone2 is dead on correct. Look, I grew up under Arminianism and was taught that method of theology for 25+ years. Like many others, all I knew about reformed theology was what those who opposed it said. In seminary, my main prof's were moderate Calvinists, which really is just a polished form of Arminianism. But when I finally started to read actual reformed thinkers, and did a real study of the doctrine of Biblical depravity (see Luther 'Bondage of the Will' or Edwards 'Freedom of the Will') I understood the real teachings of the Reformation. Like KoneWone2 says, there is no 'robotic' thing going on at all. Once God's Spirit quickens the unbeliever, they most certainly freely choose God. Before, they were unable as Scripture says (cf. Rom. 3:10-11, 1 Cor. 2:14).

My case is not uncommon with other Christians. R.C. Sproul testifies he fought it all through Bible college and seminary, but ended up being convicted through an unbiased study of reformed thinking. I would recommend his book "What is Reformed Theology?" for those wanting a good understanding of the basics.less

Sorry, I really shouldn't do this, but you reprimanded me for saying you had a superficial understanding of this area. This is the single best known (and perhaps only) acronym arising from reformed theology. DJMD - good last line...

Forgot to add: the discussion is not just being right or wrong; such a thing implies pride or arrogance is the driving factor. Most label reformed thinking as arrogant, when in fact, it is the biggest antidote to human pride that has ever come along.

Prophet - I am hesitant to respond further to you because if you find the discussion 'immature' or funny, then I would respectfully argue you have a superficial knowledge of the subject or too cavalier an attitude. These are serious New Testament themes (cf. Rom. 9-11, 1 Cor. 1-3, etc.) and have been discussed/debated by nearly every great Church father or theologian up to the present. The glory o...more

Prophet - I am hesitant to respond further to you because if you find the discussion 'immature' or funny, then I would respectfully argue you have a superficial knowledge of the subject or too cavalier an attitude. These are serious New Testament themes (cf. Rom. 9-11, 1 Cor. 1-3, etc.) and have been discussed/debated by nearly every great Church father or theologian up to the present. The glory of God, His sovereignty, the ability/inability of man, approaches to evangelism, the actual atonement of Christ, and more all touch this area. I'm sorry, but if the above is your position, then I'm afraid there's nothing left to discuss with you at this point. No offense intended.less

The point is who ultimately decides a person's salvation - God or the person? These aren't fables at all, but important questions that help us have the right picture of God and ourselves. Paul evidently thought the same - see his discussion in Romans 9-11.

DP - I understand fine, however you didn't answer my question: is Paul correct in his use of the word "before" and I'm not? Or is he using an analogical / anthropomorphic style of language like me? As to your lengthy rebuttal against reformed thinking, I would recommend you (and everyone) read John Piper's excellent article which addresses 2 Pet. 3:9 (as well as 1 Tim 2:4): http://www.desiringgod....more

DP - I understand fine, however you didn't answer my question: is Paul correct in his use of the word "before" and I'm not? Or is he using an analogical / anthropomorphic style of language like me? As to your lengthy rebuttal against reformed thinking, I would recommend you (and everyone) read John Piper's excellent article which addresses 2 Pet. 3:9 (as well as 1 Tim 2:4): http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/resources/are-there-two-wills-in-godless

DP - So is Paul making my same mistake in this verse: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love ” (Ephesians 1:3–4)

DP - Not sure I'm following your argument. I am not saying God is in time or taking any sort of open theist position. Just that He, before the creation, had a plan for our salvation and that everything is under His sovereign control.

believer - in response to your question, I would say that's like asking 'so if Christ didn't die then we wouldn't be saved?'. That was God's predetermined plan and choice (cf. Acts 2:23); likewise His choice of the saved was done before the foundation of the world (cf. Eph. 1:4). In regard to free will and sovereignty, ask yourself 'Do I have free will?' Then ask, "Did I choose it or did God prede...more

believer - in response to your question, I would say that's like asking 'so if Christ didn't die then we wouldn't be saved?'. That was God's predetermined plan and choice (cf. Acts 2:23); likewise His choice of the saved was done before the foundation of the world (cf. Eph. 1:4). In regard to free will and sovereignty, ask yourself 'Do I have free will?' Then ask, "Did I choose it or did God predetermine I would have it?' In the end, all Christians believe in predestination; the debate is on how far that predestination goes.less

"Why evangelize"? Simply put, because God has ordained that the means used to bring the elect of God to salvation is the preaching of the Word (cf. Rom. 10:14). God is the sufficient cause of a person's salvation as reformed teaching states, and we (the evangelists) are the instrumental cause He uses to bring unbelievers into His saving grace.

Yes, Christians do die of cancer. I lost my wonderful wife of 9 years at age 32 to cancer. She not only left me behind, but our beautiful daughter as well who was only one year old at the time. I definitely struggled with God's goodness as we and our church prayed hard for her to be healed, but it didn't happen. I can say this: our faith is not a divine insurance policy against disease or pain or ...more

Yes, Christians do die of cancer. I lost my wonderful wife of 9 years at age 32 to cancer. She not only left me behind, but our beautiful daughter as well who was only one year old at the time. I definitely struggled with God's goodness as we and our church prayed hard for her to be healed, but it didn't happen. I can say this: our faith is not a divine insurance policy against disease or pain or suffering. One only needs to view Jesus' and Paul's life as proof of that. However, that said, I also strongly believe Romans 8:28, continue to trust God, and look forward to an eternity where - one day - every oncologist will be out of a job.less

I put myself through undergrad school working at gyms and training tons of people. There are *many* other ways to become physically fit than Yoga. With all due respect, choose one. Why even flirt with syncretism? In addition, your talk of weight lifting commits the 'faulty analogy' logical fallacy as they aren't the same thing.

Kudos to Mohler for taking so many arrows on the subject. I wonder how the Old Testament prophets or Christ and the apostles in the New Testament would have answered someone who came to them and said, "Well, I know what I do is a physical form of Baal worship, but I'm sure God understands and approves." Amazing how a little word substitution can help clarify things, eh?