To johnzon, I can understand how you feel about the 'judgment' thing. Please consider this. Over the years, I have had several people tell me not to judge them on certain issues. In the last few years, I have noticed that the people who say this are more than willing to make judgments about me or other issues. When its brought up to them that they're judging, they immediately say they're not...more

To johnzon,

I can understand how you feel about the 'judgment' thing. Please consider this. Over the years, I have had several people tell me not to judge them on certain issues. In the last few years, I have noticed that the people who say this are more than willing to make judgments about me or other issues. When its brought up to them that they're judging, they immediately say they're not. All of us make judgments every day. The Bible doesn't say not to, it just says to make right judgments. Don't be like Jesse Jackson ministering to Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky thing while Jesse was committing adultery himself. That's being hypocritical. I shouldn't judge someone if I'm doing that very thing myself.
We cannot live without making judgments on a wide variety of things. Its when their morality disagrees with our morality, both get upset. We treat our morality as an absolute. The problem with this is that when our moral view contradicts someone else's, how do we know which one is correct. Please understand, I'm talking about morality, not preferences. Why do we say that pedophilia is wrong? Just because we have set up a legality against it? That can be changed. Why do we know it is inherently wrong? What is the source of our morality?
Christians say the source of our morality is from Jesus as revealed in the Bible. Everyone else's source is only what they 'feel inside'. And since people feel different things, there can be no absolute morality. Christianity says there is an absolute moral view that never changes & its from God (someone who is outside of humans). Relative morality is unlivable. You must live with others by making judgments (whether its speed limits or laws against stealing/murder/, etc), its just impossible not to. What I find interesting is that people who say 'don't force your judgments/morality on me' are more than willing to force theirs on you. Any questions? What do you think about this?less

To johnzon & jj, Thanks for answering my query about the letters,jj. Now I know I'm calling you the right thing. To both of you, I have known several gay people over the years. Always got along good with them. My wife used to work as a floral designer and has known several also. They knew her stance but both her & I have gotten to know these people as people and have enjoyed their friendship. ...more

To johnzon & jj,
Thanks for answering my query about the letters,jj. Now I know I'm calling you the right thing.
To both of you, I have known several gay people over the years. Always got along good with them. My wife used to work as a floral designer and has known several also. They knew her stance but both her & I have gotten to know these people as people and have enjoyed their friendship. Yes, most of them knew they were gay at a young age. But none of this changes anything for us. The Bible still says it is wrong & sinful. I have had sinful sexual thoughts since I've been young (especially in my teens & 20's) but they're still wrong & sinful. We live in a 'fallen' world and it'll be 'fallen' until Jesus returns. Psychologists & psychiatrists confirm what you say about when gays knew they were gay but this in no way means they were born that way. It just means that it happened at a very young age. Both Dr. Throckmorton & the NARTHers agree with this and have developed therapies to help gays who want help. The Jones/Yarhouse study says that gays can change. Just as I (and every other straight guy) have struggled to NOT act on these feelings, gays can do this also.
Thank you, johnzon, for being upfront with me about your feelings on Christianity & the Bible. I'd like for you to completely read my posts but cannot separate my God from myself and, so, many of my posts will have references to God, Jesus & Christianity in them. Its just who I am. I will pray for you. I know the joy & fulfillment that Jesus has brought to my life and I want that for you. I have always seen you as being respectful & courteous and those are wonderful commodity's to exhibit on this website. Even though we disagree on many things, I have always felt heard & respected. I have never felt offended by you either. One more thing about 'judgment' on my next post.less

ID4234 is correct! To u4eeeahhh & converse02, I would suggest that you get educated on Christianity & modern science and I don't mean this negatively but honestly. Modern science was birthed by Christians. For documentation on this, read "How Christianity Changed the World" by Dr. Alvin Schmidt. Our modern universities were the outgrowth of monks & their monestaries learning centers. Until th...more

ID4234 is correct! To u4eeeahhh & converse02, I would suggest that you get educated on Christianity & modern science and I don't mean this negatively but honestly. Modern science was birthed by Christians. For documentation on this, read "How Christianity Changed the World" by Dr. Alvin Schmidt. Our modern universities were the outgrowth of monks & their monestaries learning centers. Until the 20th century, most scientists described their scientific findings in religious terms. In fact, the first & still most prestigious scientific society in the world (the Royal Academy of Science in Britain) had 7 of its 10 founders as Puritan Christians. If you read my 8/4 6:48 post, you'll see just a few of the great scientists that were Christians.
No, the majority of today's scientists are not atheists. Many of them are not religious (in fact they haven't really thought much about the topic) but they have not subscribed to atheism. Atheism as a system DID NOT produce modern science, Christianity did...with its insistence that the rationality of God would lead to God making the world according to rational laws, such as gravity, etc.
And why would you want more atheists in gov't? Atheism has no morality attached to it. Why would you want someone who believes in a system that has no morality. I realize some atheists have morals but it doesn't stem from their atheism. I personally want the best people in gov't, irregardless of whether they're atheists or not. Quota's don't work, competence does!less

Great post, rolln4him! I used to belong to PK. My son & I went to the Washington DC event & to one at the Pontiac Silverdome in Michigan. It was a great movement of God for men. Unfortunately some men 'fall'. There are always the Pharisees, taking every chance to kill Jesus all over again. Funny they don't apply the same standard to their pet activities. PK has done and will do great th...more

Great post, rolln4him!
I used to belong to PK. My son & I went to the Washington DC event & to one at the Pontiac Silverdome in Michigan. It was a great movement of God for men.
Unfortunately some men 'fall'. There are always the Pharisees, taking every chance to kill Jesus all over again. Funny they don't apply the same standard to their pet activities. PK has done and will do great things for God. No one is beyond God's reach.less

To Cheisa, I completely agree with you. I would excommunicate TEC from the Anglican Communion immediately.

Good points, steveh20. One additional thing is that with more CO2 in the atmosphere, like there was during the Age of Exploration (AOE, 1200-1600's approximately), growing seasons can be longer, increasing food supplies. During the AOE, the warming cycle melted the arctic ice sheets which enabled the sea explorers to more easily sail to North America & other places. Trade increased, crops incre...more

Good points, steveh20. One additional thing is that with more CO2 in the atmosphere, like there was during the Age of Exploration (AOE, 1200-1600's approximately), growing seasons can be longer, increasing food supplies. During the AOE, the warming cycle melted the arctic ice sheets which enabled the sea explorers to more easily sail to North America & other places. Trade increased, crops increased and civilization greatly benefited. Of course, the CO2 concentrations were many times higher than they are now.less

To Jehovahnissi, Glad to hear God worked things out for you & your husband. Thanks for opening up and asking for prayers. That took courage. I also appreciate your comments. Love ya, Sister!

Hi guys, I agree with a lot of what you've all said but want to add one more thing. I have gone to churches that teach the right stuff but don't want to change the way they do ministry. The gospel is unchangeable but the way we communicate it is not. Some churches would never dream of using short comedy skits during the service that highlight the pastor's sermon. Why not? With our media driv...more

Hi guys,
I agree with a lot of what you've all said but want to add one more thing. I have gone to churches that teach the right stuff but don't want to change the way they do ministry. The gospel is unchangeable but the way we communicate it is not. Some churches would never dream of using short comedy skits during the service that highlight the pastor's sermon. Why not? With our media driven culture, this would be a great technique. What about having a divorce recovery support group or a substance abuse support group taught by a church leader? These things minister to people where they need it most, but I know of a few churches who would NEVER do these things (even though there is good Christian material on them). My wife is now part of a Compassionate church group that helps people thru the grief process when they have lost loved ones. Several people started coming to this group and now attend our church and are saved.
I'm sure most of you would agree with these things but I know churches that wouldn't, who think that all they have to do is "preach the Word" (apparently without actually doing what it says). Its churches like this that will probably lose members and eventually be shut down.less

Way to post a reasoned, logical, rational post, criterion! I feel sorry for people like you, whose blind hatred of all thing Christian prompts you to write something like you have. A reasoned response would be a lot more civil & courteous and, who knows, you might learn something.

Bravo, ozarkprof! I have seen figures that say about 40% of Phd. physical scientists say that faith is a very important part of their life. Isn't it goofy how Christianity produced so many of the early scientists(16-19th century) that made the great leaps in knowledge and now people are saying that Christianity & science are mutually exclusive. People like James Clerk-Maxwell (discovered electr...more

Bravo, ozarkprof!
I have seen figures that say about 40% of Phd. physical scientists say that faith is a very important part of their life. Isn't it goofy how Christianity produced so many of the early scientists(16-19th century) that made the great leaps in knowledge and now people are saying that Christianity & science are mutually exclusive. People like James Clerk-Maxwell (discovered electro-magnetic laws), Johann Kepler, William Harvey (discovered circulation of blood), Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton, Gottfried Leibniz (invented calculus independent of Newton), Antoine Lavoisier, Alessandro Volta, John Dalton (developed atomic theory, diagnosed color blindness), Andre Ampere, Geogr Ohm, Michael Faraday, Louis Pasteur, Geogor Mendel, Lord kelvin, Joseph Lister (discovered antiseptics reduce infection), George Washington Carver & many more were all Christians.
Sam Harris needs to get educated about the origins of modern science and let go of his biases.less

To Hohnson, part 4... Your comment on 1Cor6:9,10 doesn't hold up for several reasons. 1) the Greek word for 'male prostitute' is 'malakos' and it literally means "soft to the touch". In Greek culture, it was used specifically for males who took the passive role in a homosexual act. 2) the Greek word for homosexual offender is 'arsenokoitai'. 'arsen' refers to a male & koitai refers to a bed (w...more

To Hohnson, part 4...
Your comment on 1Cor6:9,10 doesn't hold up for several reasons.
1) the Greek word for 'male prostitute' is 'malakos' and it literally means "soft to the touch". In Greek culture, it was used specifically for males who took the passive role in a homosexual act.
2) the Greek word for homosexual offender is 'arsenokoitai'. 'arsen' refers to a male & koitai refers to a bed (where we get our term coitus-the sexual act). Combined together, it means males who go to bed with other males. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon (the authoratative standard) says it literally means "One who lies with a male as with a female". The entire section of 1Cor6:9 is highlighted by the Greek word 'adiaio', which means "the unrighteous". Malakos & arsenokoitai are found in connection with other sexual sins...fornicators(pornoi) & adulterers(moichoin). Unrepentant homosexuality, fornicators & adulterers are all EXCLUDED from the Kingdom of God.

Thank you for giving me your point of view & listening to mine. I hope mine has caused you to think. Like I said in part 1 of my post, I'll probably be off CP for a few days as my wife & I will be busy with birthday preparations. Its my 60th and God only knows if we'll be able to celebrate my 70th in good physical shape. So we're taking the time to celebrate this one while we can.
Blessings on your week!less

To Hohnson, part 3.... Regarding my comment on Lev18....Look at the context of Lev18. By saying that this pronouncement against homosexuality isn't valid today, that would mean that sacrificing your children in a religious fire is OK (verse21)& having sex with an animal is OK (verse 23). God calls these things detestable. While there may be more than one underlying moral principle here, there ...more

To Hohnson, part 3....
Regarding my comment on Lev18....Look at the context of Lev18. By saying that this pronouncement against homosexuality isn't valid today, that would mean that sacrificing your children in a religious fire is OK (verse21)& having sex with an animal is OK (verse 23). God calls these things detestable. While there may be more than one underlying moral principle here, there is at least one. You don't throw out the whole of something because you don't understand one small part of it. Is your philosophy of life (your religion) air-tight?
Your comment on 2Peter2 misses the whole point. He is taking a common saying and applying it to the problem at hand. I'm sure you have used such common phrases, like "Your chances are a million to one". Of course, you don't literally mean 1,000,000 to 1. Your being hypocritical to not hold yourself or other people accountable to that standard but hold the Bible to it.
More on part4.less

To Hohnson, part 2... You mentioned that God approved polygamy in 2Sam12:7-8 yet disapproved of it elsewhere, so here is a contradiction. One rule of interpretation is always interpret the unclear verse in light of the clear verses. Gen2:21-24 & Malachi 2:14 & Proverbs 5 all speak against polygamy (there are many other verses that do also). When a new King was crowned, it was customary in anci...more

To Hohnson, part 2...
You mentioned that God approved polygamy in 2Sam12:7-8 yet disapproved of it elsewhere, so here is a contradiction.
One rule of interpretation is always interpret the unclear verse in light of the clear verses. Gen2:21-24 & Malachi 2:14 & Proverbs 5 all speak against polygamy (there are many other verses that do also). When a new King was crowned, it was customary in ancient cultures, to inherit all that the other King had, including his possessions (which included wives). If the new King didn't take them, they were usually killed as they were seen as a threat to the new King. Since God had given David the Kingdom, this automatically came along with it. David accepted Saul's wives but not as his own. In all the lists of David's wives, Sauls wives names NEVER occur. We can only guess that he accepted them and then set them free. But He did not marry them and God NEVER approved of polygamy, including here. This verse is a stereotypical ancient way or formula for saying that everything was turned over to David for his disposition. Notice the context that this verse occurs in...David took Bathsheba as his wife (polygamy) and killed Uriah (her husband) to accomplish it. God is really ticked-off at David. Would He use such strong language if He supported polygamy (2Sam12:9-14)? Nowhere in these verses does it say God approves of polygamy.
More on part 3.less

Sorry to change the subject but this is my answer to Hohnson. I probably won't be able to post for a few days as I'm helping my wife throw me a 60th birthday get together. To Hohnson, Thanks for sharing the personal info. I always appreciate that. As to your points... 1) Matt 5 & Gen 6 being a contradiction....in Matt5, Jesus is talking about us, not God. There are many things God can do...more

Sorry to change the subject but this is my answer to Hohnson. I probably won't be able to post for a few days as I'm helping my wife throw me a 60th birthday get together.

To Hohnson,
Thanks for sharing the personal info. I always appreciate that. As to your points...
1) Matt 5 & Gen 6 being a contradiction....in Matt5, Jesus is talking about us, not God. There are many things God can do that we can't, like execute judgment. Romans 12:19 nicely answers your problem with Matt 5 & Gen 6. So Matt 6 & Gen 6 are not a contradiction.
You also make a big assumption that these pre-flood people were 'innocent'. God says otherwise in Gen 6:5. Romans 3: 23 also says that no human is 'innocent'. No one is perfect, we all have rebelled (Isa 53:6). Remember, God is not only love but He is also just. If He didn't punish wickedness & rebellion, He wouldn't be a very good God & heaven would be just like Earth or worse.
You also said why didn't God just tell people not to have slaves. He did! But you made another assumption that God can force people to act a certain way (not to have slaves). Because He gave us free will, He will not force us to act in a certain way. But He does set up blessings & curses as consequences and He tells us how to treat people even if we do have slaves (which we aren't supposed to have). Maybe you also don't understand ancient 'slavery'. For the most part (not completely), it wasn't as bad as American southern slavery. In many cases, it was more like an indentured servitude. So He wasn't just speaking about American southern type slavery. Ancient slavery is too long to go into here but reading up on it may prove beneficial. Some people desired being servants to rich people as this was the only way that they could provide a 'nice' existence for their family.
More on another post.less

To mathetes, I read your post after I made mine. Thanks for the backup & reference.

To jjdiogenes, I have read up on it, extensively. If your referring to Drs. LeVay, Hamer or Bailey/Pillard's studies, none of them say that. Have you read the Yarhouse/Jones study about gays changing their sexual orientation? By the way, are the 1st two letters in your screen name "jj"? I don't want to call you the wrong screen name, so I thought I'd better ask.

To Jehovahnissi, I will be praying for you. DP's 5:58 post says it all. Love you, sister! Your in God's arms! I pray that you have someone to open up to, to mentor you & your husband thru this.

To PastorNick, I appreciate your spirit and what you are doing for the Kingdom of God in your profession. Praise God for people like you. I think the problem here is that almost all of the negativity is coming from the gays. If you look back over the last few months of posts, you will find mike85 & H-man have consistently used inflamatory language when the other posters did not. Some Christ...more

To PastorNick,

I appreciate your spirit and what you are doing for the Kingdom of God in your profession. Praise God for people like you.
I think the problem here is that almost all of the negativity is coming from the gays. If you look back over the last few months of posts, you will find mike85 & H-man have consistently used inflamatory language when the other posters did not. Some Christians have become extremely frustrated and have used strong language (and in some cases inflamatory). While I appreciate your mentioning this to garageguy, mike85 & H-man are the masters of this type of language on CP. Maybe mentioning something to them first would have been better (but hey, hindsight is always 20-20).
Instead of using this type of language, I just choose not to respond directly to their vulgar postings. From the beginning they have consistently shown a lack of respect for anybody who disagrees with them. I appreciate that you have cut short your sessions because someone isn't receiving what you have to offer. That's what many of us have had to do with mike85, H-man & some others. I wish they could have a respectful conversation, even if we disagree with them. I have had this with a few posters and we both come away from it feeling heard & respected.
Thank you for bringing some sanity to this issue. I look forward to seeing your future posts.less

To PastorNick, Regarding your comments to Hyperion....Early on my posting here, I (like Hyperion) tried very hard and was very patient with people like mike85 & H-man. My posts were responded to with hate filled diatribes accusing me of being a Nazi & homophobe and awful name-calling. After a while, I just stopped responding directly to them. If other people want to respond to them, fine. Bu...more

To PastorNick,

Regarding your comments to Hyperion....Early on my posting here, I (like Hyperion) tried very hard and was very patient with people like mike85 & H-man. My posts were responded to with hate filled diatribes accusing me of being a Nazi & homophobe and awful name-calling. After a while, I just stopped responding directly to them. If other people want to respond to them, fine. But I see no reason to apologize to mike85 or Hman or any other 'gay' poster who has engaged in such awful activity. They don't want to have a conversation, they want to put down anyone who disagrees with them. They have done the same thing to Jehovahnissi & DanielPaul and others.
If you want to attempt to have a conversation with them, fine. But don't apologize for other people who tried and were villified for it.less

To johnzon, When we say being gay is a choice, we don't necessairly mean that one day the person said "I'm going to be gay". Many pych's say there are several 'causes' for becoming gay but no professional studies are saying that its biological anymore. There's just NO proof of that at all. The causes are usually done early in the life of the person, so he/she may not be aware of it conscious...more

To johnzon,

When we say being gay is a choice, we don't necessairly mean that one day the person said "I'm going to be gay". Many pych's say there are several 'causes' for becoming gay but no professional studies are saying that its biological anymore. There's just NO proof of that at all.
The causes are usually done early in the life of the person, so he/she may not be aware of it consciously. One cause is when the sexual identity is at a crucial stage at around 5-8 years old. If the person is sexually molested, this MAY cause their sexual identity path to be 'perverted' into homosexuality. But they were not made that way. It is a choice and it can be changed. At the very least, it doesn't have to be acted upon. The pedophile, beastiphile or polygamist can say that he was born this way also but its just not true.
Many hetero men can say that its always been natural for them to want to have sex with many women and they can't remember a time when it wasn't, but this doesn't make adultery right. We have to restrain ourselves.
This world is sinful and not everything that seems 'natural' is right. This is why the source of morality is the Bible.less