Thank you for your comments Steve. Yes, Muslims were also involved in philsophy, including scientific observation. I should ask what you mean by the dark ages. Modern science still lacks a sufficient grounding. It was essentially the belief that the world is ordered that has gotten us thus far. To even utilize inductive reasoning, the naturalist must suspend his belief in natural evolution.

//"Expelled was laughably bad, if you found it to be convincing, it does not say much for any other sources you also find convincing."// That is interesting, juan, considering John Lennox let the hot air out of your commanding cheif, Richard Dawkins. Nobody is perfect, not even the village atheist.

BTW, I did reply to your comment way back down the thread, a hundred comments or so.

Thank you for your reply, 2011. The thrust of the argument above is on the issue of keeping the ten commandments. In short, it is an argument based on pragmatism. It may not necessarily be a logical step from the text that freedom is completely dependent upon keeping the commandments, but I think that history reveals that at the rise of Biblical literacy, as per the Reformation and the reproductio...more

Thank you for your reply, 2011. The thrust of the argument above is on the issue of keeping the ten commandments. In short, it is an argument based on pragmatism. It may not necessarily be a logical step from the text that freedom is completely dependent upon keeping the commandments, but I think that history reveals that at the rise of Biblical literacy, as per the Reformation and the reproduction and distribution of the Bible in common language via the printing press, that there is a distinction between Christian societies, secular states and eastern, pantheistic societies, that has tends to follow the pattern of the argument.less

It is always interesting to see a relativist tell other people how to live and what to think.

2011, You seem to be obsessed about the movie, Paul. While I'm sure some atheists will get a bang out of watching the Christian being portrayed as gullible and ignorant, Hollywood is not exactly the most responsible source for an objectionable Christian survey. Such sophomoric humor is quite telling. I must ask, do you have any idea what gave rise to science in the first place? You might be surpri...more

2011, You seem to be obsessed about the movie, Paul. While I'm sure some atheists will get a bang out of watching the Christian being portrayed as gullible and ignorant, Hollywood is not exactly the most responsible source for an objectionable Christian survey. Such sophomoric humor is quite telling. I must ask, do you have any idea what gave rise to science in the first place? You might be surprised to learn that it most certainly was not atheism.

NEWSFLASH: It was the secular philosophers who were enraged at Galileo for his criticism of Aristotle. They were the ones who initially appealed to Rome to put Galileo on ice. If you examine the history of science, you will discover that it has a very rich heritage among the Christian thinkers over the years and it owes them an enormous debt to the rise of modern science. Furthermore, naturalism inherently lacks the fundamental tools to develop the scientific method in the first place.less

Actually, John Lennox is more interesting than Ben Stein in my opinion. . . . http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/03/hear-all-of-john-lennoxs-new-zealand-talks.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hear-all-of-john-lennoxs-new-zealand-talks

2011, you should check out Expelled, maybe not so funny, but informative nonetheless.

By the way, from whence came logic?

Thank you 2011. I wasn't trying to build a water tight argument for the existence of God, divine command or social democracy. It was simply a declarative and some simple observations. You don't have to agree, but I think it to your benefit to investigate it for yourself. You might want to start with Vishal Mangalwadi's work on the subject. You can find some of his lectures here: http://visha...more

Thank you 2011. I wasn't trying to build a water tight argument for the existence of God, divine command or social democracy. It was simply a declarative and some simple observations. You don't have to agree, but I think it to your benefit to investigate it for yourself. You might want to start with Vishal Mangalwadi's work on the subject. You can find some of his lectures here:

http://vishal.fruitfulbough.com/less

The first commandment given to Moses was as follows, "I am the LORD your God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me." Notice, the relationship between freedom and God. When we take God out of the picture, we are left with tyranny and authoritarianism. The only way that civilization could even possibly continue to exist ...more

The first commandment given to Moses was as follows, "I am the LORD your God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me." Notice, the relationship between freedom and God. When we take God out of the picture, we are left with tyranny and authoritarianism. The only way that civilization could even possibly continue to exist in a completely secularized, atheistic people is if they borrow from Christian capital.less

Thank you PeaceAndHarmony for your thoughtful response. Science can tell us a lot of things, but may I ask two questions? (1) Who will determine the data for such a formula? (2) What data will be accepted? Science can do a lot of things, but science does not, cannot, determine what is good or bad. We can develop morals based on statistics and social analysis, but it is still based on the faulty pr...more

Thank you PeaceAndHarmony for your thoughtful response. Science can tell us a lot of things, but may I ask two questions? (1) Who will determine the data for such a formula? (2) What data will be accepted? Science can do a lot of things, but science does not, cannot, determine what is good or bad. We can develop morals based on statistics and social analysis, but it is still based on the faulty premise of subjective opinion and moral relativism.

The first commandment given to Moses was as follows, "I am the LORD your God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me." Notice, the relationship between freedom and God. When we take God out of the picture, we are left with authoritarianism. The only way that civilization could possibly continue to exist in a completely secularized, atheistic people is if they borrow from the Christian worldview.

In so many words, even atheist, Richard Dawkins agrees to the Christian injunction of morality, calling himself a cultural Christian.less

By the way, Pascal is much too advanced for the person who condescendingly dismisses him with the wave of the hand.

As I stated, morals such as love, are attributes and characteristics of God. When we have the divine command, "love your neighbor," God did not arbitrarily pick it out of his hat. It is embedded in his very nature.

My point here was that rights are not based on personal preferences. Although we have the right to our own personal preferences, we do not have the right in to act them out. We have the right to prefer Vanilla ice cream, but that doesn't give us the right to have it. In other words, we cannot file a lawsuit if a company discontinues it. There are any number of sexually immoral actions that are...more

My point here was that rights are not based on personal preferences. Although we have the right to our own personal preferences, we do not have the right in to act them out. We have the right to prefer Vanilla ice cream, but that doesn't give us the right to have it. In other words, we cannot file a lawsuit if a company discontinues it.

There are any number of sexually immoral actions that are deemed illegal in America. There may be an endless number of personal preferences in the matter, but that does not translate to a constitutional right.less

Ben Witherington and other scholars have been responding to Erhman over the years. Here's a few good links: http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of.html http://www.youtube.com/user/ehrmanproject http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/bart-ehrman%E2%80%99s-problem-part-1 http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3211 http://athe...more

Ben Witherington and other scholars have been responding to Erhman over the years. Here's a few good links:

http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/ehrmanproject

http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/bart-ehrman%E2%80%99s-problem-part-1

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3211

http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2010/01/atheism-essays-particular-to-bart.htmlless

A poll was reported taken in another country in which 50% of the Catholics said they were atheists.

Another thing, regarding your comments on Morgan, sometimes intellectual hermits (I'm not necessarily implying this is the case with you) forget that we are in fact spiritual beings. We have a longing for eternity, as C.S. Lewis put it. We also seem to be born with an intuitive knowledge of a divine Being. I know that for atheists that are unaccustomed to testimonial services, this is all new, but...more

Another thing, regarding your comments on Morgan, sometimes intellectual hermits (I'm not necessarily implying this is the case with you) forget that we are in fact spiritual beings. We have a longing for eternity, as C.S. Lewis put it. We also seem to be born with an intuitive knowledge of a divine Being. I know that for atheists that are unaccustomed to testimonial services, this is all new, but I would encourage you to listen to other people as they share their experiences and reflections.less

Thank you for your comments. May I suggest some interesting reading to help you understand the relationship between faith and history/knowledge/science. As far as I can tell, Thomas Cahill is not a Christian, at least it is not evidenced in his works. In The Gifts of the Jews, he chronicles how it was the Jews who actually gave us history. Rodney Stark has also done some interesting work on the su...more

Thank you for your comments. May I suggest some interesting reading to help you understand the relationship between faith and history/knowledge/science. As far as I can tell, Thomas Cahill is not a Christian, at least it is not evidenced in his works. In The Gifts of the Jews, he chronicles how it was the Jews who actually gave us history. Rodney Stark has also done some interesting work on the subjects mentioned, including: For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery. I think he was an agnostic when he wrote this book. That should be a good start for an open-minded investigation, I have more if you'd like.less

Great argument PeaceAndHarmony. Apart from God, we can be certain of nothing. On the other hand, if we are the freak product of nature, then we can be sure that we cannot trust our self, especially our brain. http://www.origins.org/articles/plantinga_theismrationality.html