Let me help you, Cudd. I have an example of a church that is guilty of murder. Well, its really not an orthodox church nor is it a member of the National Association of Evangelicals. As a matter of fact, it is decried as a cult and that church is known as Mormonism. Although the mainline church has taken a stand against violence after embarrassing revelations, it was not always so. And some splint...more

Let me help you, Cudd. I have an example of a church that is guilty of murder. Well, its really not an orthodox church nor is it a member of the National Association of Evangelicals. As a matter of fact, it is decried as a cult and that church is known as Mormonism. Although the mainline church has taken a stand against violence after embarrassing revelations, it was not always so. And some splintering sects continue to commit crimes against their unfaithful.

Once again, however, Christians were the first to bring these atrocities into the open. Although there is a group of atheists made up of former members, there are many Christians who labor in love as full time missionaries, specifically to the followers of the late Joseph Smith.less

theeviljuan, You are absolutely correct about Christian atheistsm John Dominic Crosson is a good example. As per child indoctrination, if something is true, then why not teach it? It was Thomas Jefferson who authorized the first printing of the Bible in America to be funded by tax money for use in public schools.

Please educate us, exactly who has committed such an act other than Muslim terrorists? It is the same as if I were to say that atheism leads to mass murder, only I can actually offer some examples.

truefreethinker.com has some good research on the subject. . . http://www.truefreethinker.com/adolf-hitler-nazism-communism

Well, I think that there are a lot of implications that ride on the subject. It certainly doesn't prove whether or not God exists. Dawkins and others would love to try to place him as a perfect example of Christian hate. Well, it just doesn't work. I'm glad that you know better than that.

I agree Steve, learning about history is great, period. I was replying to your insinuation that it was secular humanism that gave us freedom of religion, which is simply not true.

The issue that I was raising in regard to America's founders is that their sense of freedom did not originate with the secular philosophy of their day. As per the French Revolution, maybe you should do some more research on the subject. It was a secular blood bath.

Cudd, the Liberty Foundation Gospel Ministries is not a good example of murder. It is however, a great example of the importance of Biblical literacy. Interestingly enough, it is Christian ministries who are working to stop their child abuse, however good their intentions may be. What I need Cudd, is examples of mainstream churches in America or Europe, where Bible literacy has been well establish...more

Cudd, the Liberty Foundation Gospel Ministries is not a good example of murder. It is however, a great example of the importance of Biblical literacy. Interestingly enough, it is Christian ministries who are working to stop their child abuse, however good their intentions may be. What I need Cudd, is examples of mainstream churches in America or Europe, where Bible literacy has been well established.less

Whoever disagreed below is welcome to submit evidence.

Please Cudd, now you made a very serious accusation and you failed to submit the evidence. Which church in America murdered people? Baptist? Pentecostal? Episcopalian? Amish? Quaker? Lutheran? Wesleyan?

If Hitler was a Christian, then Thomas Jeferson was the pope. . . . Yes, Hitler was baptized when he was a baby, but he never attended mass or received the sacraments (Wikipedia). He picked and choosed what suited his purposes. Yes, he also did what he could to keep church people under his thumb. American intelligence did release some documents some time back which noted that Hitler perposely...more

If Hitler was a Christian, then Thomas Jeferson was the pope.
. . .
Yes, Hitler was baptized when he was a baby, but he never attended mass or received the sacraments (Wikipedia). He picked and choosed what suited his purposes. Yes, he also did what he could to keep church people under his thumb. American intelligence did release some documents some time back which noted that Hitler perposely decieved the Catholic church. This is exactly how he used the secret societies to gain his power, which in turn, he destroyed.

The leader of the Hitler Youth stated "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" from the start, but "considerations of expedience made it impossible" publicly to express this extreme position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Religious_viewsless

On the serious side Cudd, have you ever actually read the New Testament for yourself? Try it sometime, you might like it :), even if you don't believe in God. Also, do yourself a favor and examine the links I posted. Zeitgeist is skeptical knee-jerk reaction, without any historical merit. Maybe you could examine some of N.T. Wright's material as well. Zeit has no handle on the Jewish culture, whic...more

On the serious side Cudd, have you ever actually read the New Testament for yourself? Try it sometime, you might like it :), even if you don't believe in God. Also, do yourself a favor and examine the links I posted. Zeitgeist is skeptical knee-jerk reaction, without any historical merit. Maybe you could examine some of N.T. Wright's material as well. Zeit has no handle on the Jewish culture, which is pertinent to the issue in understanding the thought processes that it tries to circumvent. The argument also fails to produce one shred of evidence, it is based purely on the imagination as well as most other conspiracy theories.
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Of course the references I offered were C.E. (lol), did you expect B.C.? How could they have said what they said if they lived before Christ? Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny and Suetonius all date back to the first century A.D. (C.E. if you prefer).
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Furthermore, to dismiss the credibility of the New Testament documents on the grounds that the writers believed what they wrote appeals to the genetic fallacy. There is simply no good reason to reject the New Testament documents, except for personal prejudice.
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P.S. There is pleanty of archeological evidence, unless the only evidence that you would accept is the actual body of Christ. lol. Like the other rerences mentioned above, the only reason to ignore it is because you don't like it.less

As pertaining to the issue of freedom of religion, this did not derive from Hume, Lock or Smith. Religious freedom is directly associated with active churchmen who looked to the Bible as there guide in the matter. . Interesting isn't it? How atheists such as 1981cudd cry out against Christianity as hostile to freedom, when it is the source from whence it has been derived.

Another thing, you'll need to demonstrate the correlation between fundamentalism and terrorism. . The Amish for example have a long standing history of fundamentalism. Fundamentalism does not equate violence. . Finally, it is interesting how you so easily dismiss Stalin, Pol Pot and other atheist dictators. It is especially a concern considering the fact that many of these blood thirsty ...more

Another thing, you'll need to demonstrate the correlation between fundamentalism and terrorism.
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The Amish for example have a long standing history of fundamentalism. Fundamentalism does not equate violence.
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Finally, it is interesting how you so easily dismiss Stalin, Pol Pot and other atheist dictators. It is especially a concern considering the fact that many of these blood thirsty secular regimes are still alive today.less

Steve, still waiting for your answer to the comments below, particularly on the issue of meaning. . Cudd, I'm waiting. Btw, don't bore us with using Hitler as an example. He was no more of a Christian than Thomas Jefferson was a catholic pope. . Also, make sure your references are modern, recent examples of churches committing murder. Wars in the name of Christendom will not work. Neithe...more

Steve, still waiting for your answer to the comments below, particularly on the issue of meaning.
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Cudd, I'm waiting. Btw, don't bore us with using Hitler as an example. He was no more of a Christian than Thomas Jefferson was a catholic pope.
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Also, make sure your references are modern, recent examples of churches committing murder. Wars in the name of Christendom will not work. Neither will it do you any good for you to cite examples of the Catholic church's acts of violence against protestants Christians.less

Steve, the founding fathers did not live in a vacuum. One quick read of a few quotes reveals this. There were laws that actually required public servants to acknowledge the existence of God, back in the day. While philosophy certainly had played its part, the founders by no means, implemented a secular regime. This distinction can be seen in the French Revolution, where the streets ran red with th...more

Steve, the founding fathers did not live in a vacuum. One quick read of a few quotes reveals this. There were laws that actually required public servants to acknowledge the existence of God, back in the day. While philosophy certainly had played its part, the founders by no means, implemented a secular regime. This distinction can be seen in the French Revolution, where the streets ran red with the blood of many Christians.less

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First ...more

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797

"I ... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." Will of Samuel Adams

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.

"I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." Benjamin Rush

Truly, the entire American populace was not Christian, but any quick glance at history will reveal that they were far more religious than modern America is today. Although they sought to maintain a secular form of government, they by no means intended it to turn into an atheist regime. It was there implicit desire for America to be guided by Scripture. Even though Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, he actually approved of the government to fund the first Bibles printed in America to be used in schools.

Like it or not, Christianity is America's heritage.less

//"The churches answered criticism in the past with murder..."// References please. BTW, Mark Twain was not an atheist.

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First ...more

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797

"I ... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." Will of Samuel Adams

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.

"I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." Benjamin Rush

Truly, the entire American populace was not Christian, but any quick glance at history will reveal that they were far more religious than modern America is today.less

Hahaha! Are you suggesting that Greek pagans should have been the first ones to write about Jesus? Never mind the fact that he is in fact mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Josephus, The Talmud, Mara bar Sarapion, Lucian, Celsus, etc. These are all non-Christians, there are also the numerous writings from Greeks who became Christians. There is no reason to reject the Gospel ac...more

Hahaha! Are you suggesting that Greek pagans should have been the first ones to write about Jesus? Never mind the fact that he is in fact mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Josephus, The Talmud, Mara bar Sarapion, Lucian, Celsus, etc. These are all non-Christians, there are also the numerous writings from Greeks who became Christians.

There is no reason to reject the Gospel accounts except but for personal prejudice. Most liberal scholars point to Matthew and Mark relying on a "hypothetical" gospel that they call "Q." If this is correct then it predates the Gospels. The Gospel of Mark is dated from 50 A.D., that's less than twenty years after the crucifixion. If the scholars are correct, then it would follow that Q is earlier than Mark. Secondly, 1 Corinthians 15:8 has been dated between 1 1/2 and 8 years following the crucifixion. There is no way that you can expect better than that for any ancient piece of literature.

Then there is the mythical associations. The infamous Zeitgeist movie that uses this argument is nothing but a complete fraud and has been totally debunked. If you want serious scholarship, I suggest N.T. Wright's The Resurrection of the Son of God, in which he demonstrates the unique circumstances that totally set these myths apart from Jesus.

Here's some stuff to get you started:

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=107

http://apologetics315.blogspot.com/2011/01/refutation-of-zeitgeist-mp3-audio.htmlless