"The Freedom From Religion Foundation is protesting a decision by an army post in North Carolina not to provide the same support for an atheist event that it did for a Christian one last fall." Maybe they should consider using some church marketing strategies. lol

Cudd, you make a lot of presumptions here. For one, you are just assuming morality, even though naturalism has nothing substantial to offer. Secondly, you are forgetting where freedom of speech and religious liberty came from. America's founders were not atheists. Thirdly, you are confusing ideology and terrorism. For example, Amish are extremely ideological and yet they do not believe in violence...more

Cudd, you make a lot of presumptions here. For one, you are just assuming morality, even though naturalism has nothing substantial to offer. Secondly, you are forgetting where freedom of speech and religious liberty came from. America's founders were not atheists. Thirdly, you are confusing ideology and terrorism. For example, Amish are extremely ideological and yet they do not believe in violence whatsoever. On the other hand, atheist dictators such as Stalin murdered millions in the name of secularism. Fourth, you reveal a complete lack of knowledge concerning the archeological, historical and bibliological evidence for Jesus. In order to dismiss Jesus as a historical person, you must reject all first hand testimony and defy all modern scholarship. Finally, you condemn crimes committed in the name of religion, well so did Jesus.less

My point here is that objective meaning is not derived from mere "belief." It is derived from God Himself. If it were possible for God to not exist, then life would be meaningless regardless of what we believe. On the other hand, since God does exist, then life does have objective meaning, even if someone chooses not to believe. That being said, where does this root desire for meaning come...more

My point here is that objective meaning is not derived from mere "belief." It is derived from God Himself.

If it were possible for God to not exist, then life would be meaningless regardless of what we believe. On the other hand, since God does exist, then life does have objective meaning, even if someone chooses not to believe.

That being said, where does this root desire for meaning come from? Mother nature? Atheists have yet to answer this in any meaningful way.less

1981cudd, many skeptics, after examining the archeological, historical and bibliographical evidence have become Christians. Even radically skeptical scholars such as Bart Ehrman (agnostic) and the Jesus Seminar (atheists, existentialists, etc.) completely disagree with you. http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php Dr. Norman Geisler cites over twenty archeological discoveries on the book...more

1981cudd, many skeptics, after examining the archeological, historical and bibliographical evidence have become Christians. Even radically skeptical scholars such as Bart Ehrman (agnostic) and the Jesus Seminar (atheists, existentialists, etc.) completely disagree with you.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

Dr. Norman Geisler cites over twenty archeological discoveries on the book of Acts alone.less

phoenix, just who is getting bossy and forceful now? With the exception of a select few, America's founders would be considered religious extremists according to your standards. If you disagree with Jesus, the apostles and prophets of old, then your argument is misdirected. dlholl didn't threaten anyone nor did he suggest forceful coercion. He is appealing to authority, Scripture in particular...more

phoenix, just who is getting bossy and forceful now? With the exception of a select few, America's founders would be considered religious extremists according to your standards.

If you disagree with Jesus, the apostles and prophets of old, then your argument is misdirected. dlholl didn't threaten anyone nor did he suggest forceful coercion. He is appealing to authority, Scripture in particular.

To top it off, you're telling him to mind his own business? Come one, get real! Here you are bossing him around, what hypocrisy! Here you are on a Christian web sight, with an open forem, telling a Christian not to express his faith.

WOW!less

Quite the contrary, "belief" has nothing to do with objective meaning. That is the point I've been stressing. Sorry I wasn't making myself clear.

Dawkins should stick with what he knows, even if its not much. he has blown every debate that I've heard him in (at least three). Neverthless, to help answer your question: http://www.epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=45

"Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model... cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?"...more

"Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model... cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?"

-Stephen Hawkingless

theeviljuan, Are you denying that the pharisees believed in the after life? Oh, and btw, maybe you should read Pensees before you ridicule the wager.

lol

There is no unified theory of truth Steve. Furthermore, "having been weighed and found wanting," logical positivism has been abandoned, not only by Antony Flew, but philosophers in general. As secular thinkers have abandoned God, a perpetual crisis of truth has erupted. The bottom line is that if God is dead, then man is dead.

Steve, it should have said: If meaning is determined by our own personal "belief" in God, then it follows that life is meaningless for the atheist even though God exists. I don't know how much more clear I can make it Steve. Before you respond, you should try to make the effort to read the entire comment that I posted below that way you know what to argue against.

Wow! too much to say, too little time. In short, read someone besides Dawkins for your history and Bible interpretation, after all, he's only a biologist.

//Because?// Steve, if meaning is determined by our own personal belief in God, then it follows that life is meaningless for the atheist. On the flip side, it would also imply that life is meaningful for the believer, even if God does not exist. I am saying that a person's "belief" is subjective and personal and while that is at least worth something, without God, it too is ultimately meani...more

//Because?//

Steve, if meaning is determined by our own personal belief in God, then it follows that life is meaningless for the atheist. On the flip side, it would also imply that life is meaningful for the believer, even if God does not exist.

I am saying that a person's "belief" is subjective and personal and while that is at least worth something, without God, it too is ultimately meaningless. On the other hand, if there is a God with whom we have to do, then even in the atheist's deepest pit of doubt and despair, life is intrinsically valuable and objectively meaningful.

If natural materialism is the hard cold reality (as Dawkins puts it), then when we talk of things such as meaning, morality, hope, love, human dignity, goodness, et al, it means nothing. It is but an illusion, propogated by our physical brain to aid us in survival.

To take it a step further, the talk itself is completely meaningless, unless there is a very real God who has in fact given us these instincts and the ability to understand them. Anything else is a mere personal construct and wishful thinking. Therefore, when the atheist accuses the Christian of wishful thinking, it is in fact the opposite that is true. The atheist places himself in the dilemma in which there is no way out. We are made in such a way that apart from God, man is dead, as a thinker, as a scientist, as an artist, as a moralist. Like it or leave it, this is the conclusion.less

Steve, just how is it that string theory offers some kind of objective meaning to life? Go ahead, humour me.

Francis Shaeffer called it taking the roof off.

"Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival." -C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves

You are right to be concerned Steve. If the new atheists are right, personality is an illusion and morality is a social construct. Doesn't offer much security, huh?

Objectivity, while I think that this is a valid argument and worth considering, it may also be said that since Moses had no understanding of the trinity, that he worships at a differnt throne than the apostle Paul. There is a factor that is often omitted, that of revelation and understanding. Over time, I have come to the conclusion that Dr Robert Morey's arguments (which are very polarizing i...more

Objectivity, while I think that this is a valid argument and worth considering, it may also be said that since Moses had no understanding of the trinity, that he worships at a differnt throne than the apostle Paul. There is a factor that is often omitted, that of revelation and understanding.

Over time, I have come to the conclusion that Dr Robert Morey's arguments (which are very polarizing in their approach) do not offer enough attention to the details. It is way too simplified to suggest that just because someone believes something different about somebody, this implies that they have a different person altogether.

I'm not saying that Allah is YHWH. But at the same time, I don't know of any Muslim who actually thinks he is worshipping the moon god either.less

It is not the "belief" in God that makes the difference, it is the existence of God. With God, life has meaning, whether we believe in Him or not.