Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Nice bit of circular reasoning Mickey. We give you a passage that clearly condemns homosexuality, you claim it doesn't apply because homsexuality is not against your nature, we explain how that's an inappropriate understanding of "nature," and then you justify homosexual nature by saying that the Bible never says it is sin.

This is nothing less than willful disobedience to God's clear words, Mickey. I urge you and others of similar persuasion to repent. Sincerely seek the Lord's will in this matter and He will answer you.

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Mike,

Speaking about Rom 1:26-27, you said, "It is a clear condemnation of people going against their nature. It is my nature to be gay, I did not choose it."

By your reasoning, human beings would be culpable for virtually no sins whatsoever because we can just blame our "natures." However, Scripture says our "natures" are sinful and that's what causes us to be separated from God. Please consider carefully what Paul writes in Ephesians about our sinful natures and why that makes us objects of God's wrath:

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath" (Eph 2:1-3).

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Juan,
"When we achieve final salvation. In other words, not in this life time."

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that we will no longer be human. In fact, Scripture says our souls live on after death and we will receive resurrected bodies that will be reunited with our souls, so we will remain human forever.

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

IacceptHim,

That's my name: Tom Gender. Why do you ask?

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Juan,
Regarding "remove the speck from your brother's eye", you said "My interpretation of this is that we are all on the same journey. You should take care of your life first and not attempt judge another person until you are without sin. i.e. are no longer human."

Respectfully, where do you get that interpretation from? When will we EVER be no longer human? The meaning seems to be quite plain as Jesus condemns hypocritical judging like the Pharisees were doing and we also are quite capable of doing. But the fact that he says first take the log out of your eye, THEN the speck from your brother clearly shows His intention is not to prohibit judging altogether.


"You are free to throw them out of your church, your fellowship, but that does not give you the right to use the laws to persecute them or deprive them of free will."

Two points. First, throwing someone out of your church means you are judging them. Second, I never said we should persecute them or deprive them of free will, so please don't put words in my mouth.

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Juan,
"Speak your belief for YOUR life, but do not judge the path fated to another by the Holy Spirit!"

Christians are not to judge hypocritically, but we certainly are to judge sin. If you continue reading Matt 7, you'll see this: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matt 7:5). What exactly do you think it means to then "remove the speck from your brother's eye"?

Didn't Paul and all the NT writers judge sin? Didn't Paul say to expel the immoral brother from fellowship? Moral relativism has no place in the Christian life, so please drop the "your belief in your life" business.

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Mike,

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Rom 1:26-27).

This is a clear condemnation of homosexuality as a sin. It's called unnatural, lustfful, indecent, and perverted and requires a penalty to be paid. Your not "in context of a relationship" remark is both irrelevant and non-sensical as two men committing an indecent act are obviously relating.

Former McCain Adviser Warns Against Turning GOP into 'Religious Party'

tgender »

Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

I think this challenge that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality is misguided for three reasons.

First, Christians believe the whole Bible is God's Word, not just the words spoken by Jesus while He walked the earth. And other parts of the Bible clearly and specifically condemn homosexuality.

Second, when Jesus reiterated Gen 2:24 in Matt 19:4-6 ("Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."), He was approving marriage between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all other possible kinds of sexual relationships.

Third, this issue is much broader than just homosexuality. Biblical marriage is a picture of Christ's relationship with the Church. Perversions of marriage and sexual intimacy such as rape, pornography, prostitution, fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality, polygamy, divorce, etc. all miscommunicate this relationship between Christ and His bride, the Church.

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

There's a certain amount of arrogance and insults flying around that aren't the kind of attitude Christ would want us to portray. Let's be patient with one another and try to grow together in grace.

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Mickey,

I wish you would answer my question. Do you think the Church Fathers just made up the doctrine of the Trinity in the third century or did a core belief exist about it since the apostles and fathers of the first century?

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

MickeyC,

"The History of the Church is fact. Take what you like from it, but that is the history of how the church accepted the doctrine of the trinity."

So, should we believe the Church had no conception whatsoever about the Trinity prior to 325 AD and then suddenly it appeared out of nowhere? Or is it more likely that that they had a fairly clear understanding beginning from the first century that there is one God, and that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God? Only through decades and centuries of heretical ideas popping up did Church councils eventually hammer out the finer details of the doctrine.

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

MickeyC,

Statements like "the Council of Nicea in 325 defined the concept as we know it for the first time" seem to be designed to cast doubt on the doctrine of the Trinity since it "only showed up 300 years after Christ." This may or may not be your intent, but it is for others.

The Council of Nicea codified what the Church already believed and had believed since the beginning. They did this in order to carefully refute heretical teachings about the nature of God. The fact that we see evidence for the Trinity in the NT is proof that the apostles believed in one God revealed as three Persons.

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I am very big on the life of the mind as being essential to Christian discipleship. I think Christians need to know and understand God's Word, including the doctrines of the faith. However, I also think we need to be very careful about prescribing too many things that one must believe to be a Christian, such as the Trinity. I think about the thief on the cross and what doctrines he knew. Jesus said that he would be in paradise that day with Jesus based only on his simple understanding and allegience to Christ. He had no understanding whatsoever of the Trinity or many other doctrines of the faith. I imagine other deathbed conversions would put people in the same sort of situation.

I absolutely believe that Christians must also be disciples who grow in their understanding of biblical theology (including the Trinity and other doctrines), but we should see this as a gradual process that allows for spiritual growth and understanding as in other areas of life. Who among us was very wise or full of understanding as teenagers or twenty-somethings? We are not instantly seasoned theologians when we first come to Christ, but neither should we consider ourselves non-Christians. We all become students of the Master and will spend our lives sitting under His teaching.

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Rhi Bran,
"It is interesting that the books of the Bible do not define the concept."

The early Church drew the inference of the Trinity from two sets of evidence it accepted as true: 1) The Bible clearly taught that God is one and 2) the Bible clearly identified three persons as being divine--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This evidence is rather abundant in the NT and there are many clues to it in the OT as well. Are you saying that you don't see this evidence or are you interpreting in some other way?

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Actually, if God was three beings that would be tritheism (3 Gods). Modalism is a God who is one Being, but also only one Person who exists in three modes (sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Holy Spirit). That is not a biblical view of the Trinity.

Most U.S. Christians Don't Believe Satan, Holy Spirit Exist

tgender »

Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:14 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

I wonder how they worded the question. I would probably answer no to the question "Is the Holy Spirit a living force?" The Holy Spirit is a Person, not a force. The classical definition of the Trinity is three co-equal, co-eternal Persons in one Being who is God, so the Holy Spirit is also not a separate being either. That would be modalism. God is one Being revealed in three Persons.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

tgender »

Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

kamaciej,
"If polygamists or some other group want to fight for legalization of their unions, let them. Good for them. But that is not what we're talking about and you know it. Try to stay focused. The ONLY thing we are talking about here is including gay couples in the exact same legal existing contract that straight couples already have. Period. Nothing else."

I'm afraid you've missed the whole point. I'm trying to show that you have no moral basis to demand same-sex marriage. Moral relativism is a bankrupt ethical system. With it, you can ground any moral code by simple majority vote. My argument shows how absurd that viewpoint is because it can lead to situations that we know by intuition are wrong

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

tgender »

Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

kamaciej,

It's not a weak argument at all. In your response, you said "Gay couples are legal, consenting, loving pairs of people just like straight couples." If morality is subjective as you imply, then WHY must it be limited to "pairs of people"? And if someone loved their mother, then WHY couldn't they marry her? I suspect you are repulsed by this, yet your ethical system must permit it in order to be consistent.

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

tgender »

Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:38 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

kamaciej,
"I'm afraid you're wrong. Gay rights advocates are not fighting on a foundation of beliefs alone. We have the constitutional guarantee of equal rights on our side...the constitution says unless a person has broken the law their rights are the same as anyone else's."

Homosexuals do have equal rights. They can marry someone of the opposite sex just like I can. Are you saying that someone should be able to marry anyone they want to? Can I marry my mother? My sister? My pet? Three people?
Should there really be no rules?

Iowa Gay Marriage Ruling Spurs Calls for Marriage Amendment

tgender »

Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:35 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

Embarcadero,

"You're wrong, really wrong here."

Well, if I am, I don't believe you've shown where I'm wrong. Do you deny the existence of both objective and subjective truths? Do you believe that any morality is objective, that is, true for all people in all places at all times? Do you believe that murder is objectively wrong? Rape? Torture? If not, please explain why not.

"Life-long union between a man and a woman...is not the law of this country."

I don't deny that people divorce and that it's legal, but I do say that it's irrelevant to this discussion. I've never claimed that laws nor the behavior of people are always in alignment with God's will.

"It seems that if you were really trying to make your belief into law, you would not be targeting same-sex marriage. You'd instead target no-fault divorce."

My concern is foremost for the hearts of people to know and love God. Laws are secondary, but they are important to establish social order and expectations according to God's law. I am also against no-fault divorce.

"My question is this: why is this a question that christians latch onto?"

This is one of the most pressing social issues of the day. I imagine you are concerned with it for the same reasons. BTW, I think abortion is the number one social issue for our times. We are murdering millions of unborn persons made in God's image.

"Yet many groups feel that it is a wise use of their time and energy to try to fight something that Americans increasingly say that they want; the demographics in question mean that within the next 15 years, the majority of Americans will favor same sex marriage."

If you're right here, then why are so many states passing constitutional amendments to affirm only heterosexual marriage?

"As for slavery, the problem is that there is no free choice one can make to enter into master/slave relationship. Same sex marriage, like all marriage, relies upon free choice of those who are situated as legal equals."

It is not a matter of "free choice". It's a matter of what's God's will is. This is precisely the difference between a subjective and objective truth. God created the universe and He rules it, not us.

"Don't pretend to speak for all christian faiths."

I don't pretend to speak for all Christian faiths. I claim to speak for what God has plainly revealed in Scripture.

"How is this cause a good use of your time and energy? How does it promote christianity to take away choice from people who will never believe as you do?"

It's always a good use of my time and energy to seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness. How can you say people will never believe as I do? I once believed as you, but I now see that I was wrong. God has opened my eyes and I have new life in Jesus Christ. So, too, can you.