MLB All-Star's Rise from Ashes to Stardom Amplifies Salvation Message

torus »

Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

I suppose then that all the believers who suffer the reverse, who have lives which fall apart for no reason, who suffer great losses not by their own choosing, they would say "It's a great night to be an atheist", since their gods must have done such evil things to them?

It was his belief in a god, rather than any particular gods or the existence of those gods, which helped him, not to mention a strong grandmother. No doubt though he could have done the same thing with positive focus on understanding his predicament and he wouldn't have to sacrifice his rational dignity as a side effect!

Obama to Expand Bush's Faith Based Programs

torus »

Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The trouble with giving churches special status is that if you do this then logically equivalent status must be given to everyone who wants to preach anything they want, otherwise particular religions get preference in the state's eye and this can fairly easily seen to be in violation of separation of church and state. It follows that the only logical possibility is to treat them all as businesses.

Heck, the way I see it is that if a church with a claim on certain universal truths can't even make ends meet as a business then probably it's got other fundamental problems working against it and ought to go out of business.

Obama to Expand Bush's Faith Based Programs

torus »

Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

John - Don't be a fool. By your argument anyone who preaches/teaches anything should be tax exempt. The university I teach at, should it be tax exempt? Of course not, it's a business, an employer, holding land and so on. Similarly churches are just businesses. Their business is teaching their particular religion to their particular flock. But they're employers and hold land and hence should pay taxes.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I give up. You people can't put together a decent logical argument to save yourselves. Schumacr is the single exception and unfortunately one-per-day posts aren't conducive to productive discussion. Good luck, you'll need it.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

"Are you trying to say that something that has a *beginning* doesn't have a cause? Name one."

No, I'm not, I'm saying that there is no reason to assume that everything has a beginning. Perhaps the universe (and the time dimension within it) are circular. Consequently there could be no beginning or end.

"Don't get tripped up on terms. An eternal being could be the universe."

Which gives you basically a carefree way of arbitrarily interchanging terms. A "being" implies something very specific.

"And the space alien came from...where? And his universe came from...where? When you wrestle with the question of existence, you have to answer these questions and go back to an eternal something."

And god is where? And who created god? When you wrestle with these questions you have to go back to someone who created god. Oh wait, god wasn't created, right? Maybe neither was the space alien. You don't get to conveniently place your arbitrary sky-fairy outside the rules which you are attempting to lay down for me. If you're going to lay down rules like "everything has to come from somewhere" then the same must apply to your fairy.

"The 2nd law of thermodynamics (and no, the first law won't help you...), the expanding universe confirmed via Hubble, the radiation echo discovered from the big bang, and Einstein's theory of relativity all demand a beginning to the universe."

No they don't. All current theories of physics are models of the universe. Do you understand what a model is? It's a mathematical explanation which matches current observation and can help make predictions about the nonobservable (timewise or spacewise) universe. These models do not deal well with the instant after the big bang. There are several theories on the table which postulate a time before the big bang. None of these conflict with current cosmological models.

As regards how "noncognitive matter can create cognitive mind", the answer is that I don't know. But that doesn't mean it's not possible. Through the ages science has explained many things that were once unknown.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

S - Your "proof" suffers from three main errors which theists usually make when they attempt to "prove" the existence of their gods.

1. Shaky understanding of science. For example, your claim (a critical juncture in your "proof") that science has disproven an eternal universe. Clearly you do not keep track of the current state of big-bang cosmology.

2. Wishy-washy use of metaphysics. As soon as you try to discuss things which are "outside" this universe (like your gods) there is no context to put them in since all our experience about what it means to "exist" is inside the universe. It's very easy to simply use phrases like "omnipotent" and "outside of time" and so on because they sound good but they don't really say anything coherent.

3. Narrow view of options. A statement like "the only two choices for this being are an eternal universe or an eternal Creator" is false. There are many other options, you simply choose to avoid them because they get in the way of your "proof".

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

- something exists

With you so far.

- you don't get something from nothing

Why do you think that everything had to "come from" something? Perhaps it was around forever.

- therefore, an eternal being exists

This does not follow at all. If your above point is taken as true, all you can conclude is that the universe came from somewhere, not that an "eternal being" created it.

- the only two choices for this being are an eternal universe or an eternal Creator

Not at all. The universe could be created by a space alien in another universe. His universe in turn was created by another. Or I created the universe yesterday.

- Science has disproven an eternal universe

No it hasn't.

- Therefore, God exists

Your proof fails in so many ways it's breathtaking.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Daniel - I'm just waiting for evidence for any gods you choose.

As for my argument, yes, you've got it, especially with the "Duh!" part. The general response to "Why do you believe in god" around here is one of the following:

1. Because god tells me he exists!
2. Because I do!
3. God loves you and wants you to be happy!
4. Why are we arguing about this? Jesus says (blah blah blah.)

All of which miss the point completely because any other god and/or superstition can be substituted in with equal validity. Ergo it is not an argument at all.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

1. The existence of gods (the Mayan and Jainist and yours) and other superstitions (voodoo, animal sacrifice, black cats crossing my path, et cetera) is unlikely because I see no evidence that any of them are true. Not in all my years on this earth.

2. The reasons why I don't believe in the existence of your christian god are explained in 1. By the way, I don't think you really have any idea what the true rational ramifications of all your omni- adjectives would be. Also, what would "separate from the universe" mean? In a different universe? In a super-universe? The use of these various words is convenient. I could say a blue superdragon lives in universe Five and created us from his droppings and I could defend my metaphysics as well as you can.

2.5 Yes I am saying that often otherwise enlightened people profess belief without actually thinking. I have met people who will say "I believe in god" and then when I press them on the details they reveal they really don't understand what they're talking about and finally they get agitated and pull out of the conversation.

4a. This is correct. Humans do not necessarily believe that killing is always wrong as is evidenced by all the people who are have been killed in what are considered righteous causes over the years (your religion has done quite a bit of this). Few soldiers in Iraq or in any other war that we were on the "right side" of will be held accountable for their kills. Few people have a problem with this.

"It actually seems to be the natural state of humans to war and attack one another"

Humans both form societies for protection and kill people in other societies who threaten us. This stands firm with evolution. As for killing the weaker, this is something that humans have in fact done over the ages. We don't do it now because we've developed rational thought which has leapt over our evolved morals in terms of large-scale functionality. In other words we have not evolved quickly enough to cope properly with the world we've created without applying rational thought.

If a world-war occurs and we're reduced to animals scavenging for food then I'm going after the weaker guy with a club and I can guarantee that most everyone who lives will be doing the same thing.

4b. Sure, so perhaps you're confused about what "morally wrong" means in my mind. It does not mean "wrong because a sky-fairy told me", it means deep-seated in our subconscious or rationally developed.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - So according to you it seems I should be able to somehow transcend rational thought and, what, believe anything I want? The tooth fairy? The Mayan gods? Ritual sacrifice? Voodoo? No, you mean I should toss out rational thought for your god and your god only. That seems sort of wacky. I'll keep my head screwed on, thanks.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - I throw my hands up in hopeless disbelief at your inability to understand one level deeper than you do. I give in. If you are representative of the world as a whole then the situation may be hopeless.

Daniel - You too. You're too dense to get it too.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - Your entire essay hinges on believing on god to begin with. This was my point from the beginning. I do not believe in this god of yours and I want you to convince me. Making statements about him doesn't work because those statements assume he exists.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - That's easy. It would take the exact same thing that it would take me to convince you that the pantheon of Mayan gods is real.

If this comes across as me avoiding the question, you're partly right. My answer is intended to provoke you to think about how difficult a question it is. In truth I have no answer to your question. I suppose if your god (or the Mayan gods) do in fact exist then they would know how to convince me.

What do you think should convince me?

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - I'm not interested in Strobel's views, I'm interested in your views. If you agree with Strobel then pick one central argument of Strobel and present it briefly. Just a couple of sentences will do.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chris333 -

1. I'm not sure how I dodged the argument. What argument? Even you appreciate that proving nonexistence is impossible. If you're going to actively believe something, proof is necessary.

2. Simply because the "established position" is that gods exist (of many flavors) simply puts the burden of proof on me to give some reasons why the belief exists, not why the god doesn't. There are many historical reasons for belief in gods, generally based in ignorance. Most current belief, especially among scientists, is based basically on having a vague enough notion of god to never be put into a position of having to defend it.

3. You're still missing the point about John. He himself claimed that Dawkins' arguments were weak. He was the one who brought it up in the first place. I didn't bring up the issue. My understanding then is that he is aware of Dawkins' central arguments and if he finds them weak he can refute them. All I asked him to do was present an example of what he stated to be the case.

4. Strongest argument (among many) is that it's evolutionarily beneficial to work in groups for survival. Consequently it's beneficial to take care of your fellow man. Morals (at a root level: don't kill, don't steal) can easily seen to be derived from this level of protection of the group.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chris -

3. You should follow the thread with John. I challenged him to refute any central argument of Dawkins, his choice. In light of this it was not up to me to bring up a quote or explanation, it was up to him to present arms.

4. I've posted my individual understanding of how morality can develop outside of a religious framework no fewer than three times. With respect I'm not going to post it again because I'm already replying to too many threads.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chris333 -

1. It's pretty obvious to me (and probably to you) that invisible unicorns do not exist either (nor does the tooth fairy nor Quatzequatel) but I would challenge you to prove these facts. The point being that proving the nonexistence of something is darn near impossible. This fact however is hardly proof positive of the existence of something, unless you do in fact believe in everything you can't disprove. Pretty weak try there.

2. The witness of most everyone throughout time has been tainted by superstition and the ignorance of rational thought. People throughout the ages have believed in all sorts of things. People all over the world still do believe in all sorts of things. Unfortunately though for you (and fortunately for me) belief is not decided by vote.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - If you work on the assumption that the christian god exists and the bible is (within certain parameters) his word then your argument is logical. However this assumption is itself illogical. The very existence of your god is the key fact which you refuse to question and it is the key fact which I was trying to bring to your attention. In fact looking back at your posts I'm almost convinced that you never even understood that I was questioning his existence.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - Sure. Anytime anyone attempts to enter a discussion with a predetermined position about where he stands, the discussion is DOA. For example, you take the existence of a god as an unquestionable given. It follows that attempting to discuss the existence of god or the ramifications thereof is hopeless. You did not get to your position by logical means and it follows that logical means will not pry you from it.

Note here that if you had got to your position by logical means you would be open to the various rational approaches I have brought up because you would be convinced that your logical steps were valid and that mine must be flawed. But you are unwilling to engage and this is evidence that you have no such logical steps.

Religious Americans: My Faith Isn't the Only Way

torus »

Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Believer - I flagged my own mistake. In answer to your question, I never indicated that there was anything in this article up for debate. If you look back at my first comment it was merely applause at America for casting off (to some degree) the ignorance of religion, as illustrated by the openness of Americans.