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Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (JN 8:32)
viking's Comments
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Hi TL I see we share the same view of Christ's teaching regarding killing. I do not condemn anyone in the military or even those who kill outside of the military that is not by job. I just state that Christ is clear on this. There is no justification anywhere in the teachings of Christ for one human being to kill another.
I believe you are being to accomodating in your quoting of Tim. If the interpretation of that verse to allow killing others in defense of your family under the guise of "providing for them" were valid then it would be even more valid to interpret "providing for them" to include killing to procure food to feed them. This leads to justification of preemptive wars and wars of aggression to provide more resources to support an expanding population.
This is why I believe this is such a hard teaching of Christ. -
Hi all,
As many of you know I subscribe to the view that a follower of Christ's teachings can not serve as a combatant in the military. I only mention that to declare my bias in advance. That being said and my views aside I noticed this statement in the article.
__________________________________________________________________-
But they owe the entire nation -- and first of all their fellow soldiers -- the commitments of loyalty, obedience, respect, and protection.
The military cannot accommodate any belief system that undermines those commitments. No nation can accommodate those who would turn themselves into terrorists against their own neighbors, citizens, and fellow soldiers.
__________________________________________________________________
If one accepts this then the Author would surely be adamant in supporting the expulsion from the military of members of the home grown Oath Keepers group. Who are clear that they consider the enlistment oath that they took as not binding on them in a variety of instances. They seek to retain the benefits and privlidges of military enlistment while abrogating their oath as they see fit. It would seem to me that if they believe that they can not fulfill the oath as it was administered and they affirmed then they should in honor seek resignation of thier enlistment as concientous objectors.
If on the other hand they claim that the instances where they will not follow thier oath are when the orders of thier superiors would be unlawful then why do they need to modify thier oath since the oath already provides for soldiers to not follow unlawful orders.
In my mind this is a highly dangerous organized group who have declared that in the case of national emergency they are prepared under thier interpretation of the U.S. Constitution to use the military power they gain through thier military service to subvert the lawful civilian authorities and substitute thier will instead. This is the pathway to military junta and puppet government. Historically all such movements even when started with the intent to serve as guardians of the polity have ended up corrupted by individuals using the power of military force to thier own ends and purposes.
To me this is the potentially the most dangerous terrorist group this nation currently faces. -
Wash. State to Bar Religious Displays Inside Capitol Buildings
viking »Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:37 pm
Agree: 0 
Disagree: 0
Hi Hman
BTW do you think Hohnson is any more likely to get an admission of error from al than you and Aveteran (or myself) were? -
Hi TL
just read Hmans post and your response. I understand your concern. This is why when encountering such positions regarding the OT I refocus the discussion on Christs teaching. For this (Christ's teachings) are the foundation of our faith not the OT. In fact I believe that if someone were never to have any knowledge whatsoever of the text of the OT they could still fully come to know Christ. Therefore in working with someone who finds the OT an obstacle to comming to faith I urge them to set it asside and let us contemplate the Gospels. It is the Good News which leads to salvation not the Law. I know this issue of the OT is distressing to many steeped in scriptural study but is it not true that in the early church brought to the Greeks it was the Good News of Christ that was taught not the law. -
TL here is the quote
It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.
– De Genesi ad literam 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408 -
TLChild,
I also remember our earlier chats fondly. Thank you for your clarification which is consistent with my understanding of your views.
I understand your position regarding the literal accuracy of the Scripture. As you may recall while I do not share this view I also do not believe that it in anyway invalidates your faith. In the end it is the Gospel of Christ and his teachings which are far more important than this argument. But it is for the very reasons that you put forth regarding the rejection of the Gospel of Christ that I believe that the insistence on the literal accuracy of Genesis is misguided. I hold the same view that Augustine and the historical church has held that this places a stumbling block in the path of those who might otherwise come to Christ. I therefore consider it to be part of my role in fullfilling the Great Commission to remove this stumbling block from the path of those who might come to Christ. Of course this is not a new issue beginning with Darwin or Evolution. Rather it reaches back to the very early days of the faith. I refer you to the words of Augustine of Hippo ( the apologist who first explicated the doctrine of original sin and salvation through grace).
it won't fit here so is on next post -
Hi again MGT2
You go on to state.
What Darwinists like yourself shoud do is to address these weaknesses pointed out by other scientists (who are more than just the creationist scientists). This, to my knowledge, has not yet been done because of ignoring contrary evidence, only the belittling of the dissenting scientists.
In fact as mentioned above I stated that Darwin had gotten some things wrong. Just as Copernicus, Newton and Einstein and all the others we recognize as great scientists got some things wrong. This is not news to members of the scientific community. There may indeed be cult like individuals who deify Darwin and claim he never put a foot wrong. I am not one of them nor have I ever met one nor have I seen such postings on this site. Regarding addressing incompleteness of Evolutionary theory (weaknesses if you like) In fact evolutionary biology is a robust scientific field just as astrophysics is. Just as in astrophysics where new discoveries drive improvements through revision in our understanding of the physical nature of the universe advances in biology result in improvements through revision in our understanding of how the evolution of species works. Biologists for many years have recognized for example that while we knew natural selection happened from observation no one really knew the mechanism for this to actually happen. Then DNA was discovered and the physical mechanism (which obviously had to exist) for the transmission of traits including modification through mutation was revealed. This happens all the time and these (weaknesses) errors in a perfect match between our understanding and reality are gradually being filled in. While contrary evidence may in fact be ignored I have never seen this rather quite the opposite. On the other hand I have seen arguments based on misrepresentations (like the false claim that evolution states that men are descendants of apes) being dismissed for the canards they are. I did belittle those who make such blatant misrepresentations (as was done in the article). On the other hand if anyone had any actual evidence based on a truthful statement of what is being disputed I would be interested in that. -
Hi again MGT2
to continue you go on to state
Additionally, it speaks of a scientific intolerance for any view or theory that does not affirm the "truth" of Darwinism. This attitude itself is nothing more than scientific cultism. Denying that things could be otherwise, even when there is enough evidence to at least raise suspision, is close-minded in a religious way.
Well in fact you might note that in my post I stated at the outset.
Darwin was wrong in some things
This is direct evidence to the exact contrary of your statement characterizing me as a practitioner of (horrors) scientific cultism and (heavens to murgatroid) Darwinism. In what cult do members state that the supposed founder was wrong or in error. It’s almost as if you didn’t read my post at all but just wrote from a rhetorical script. -
Hi MGT2
Thanks for responding my apologies for the earlier oblique response. I acted when short on time in response to the fact that my post that you were responding to had been flagged and thus not immediately available for others to see what you were responding to.
I am happy to respond now more fully to your response.
First I do not believe that you flagged my post. I have not seen this behavior associated with you. Also it is not logical that you would hide the post you took time to respond to. While we may disagree on some points I do not believe you are a cowardly person who resorts to censorship rather than debate. In fact I believe you are a sincere brother in Christ who simply has a different position regarding this topic than I do.
Now in response you state in part
• You readily accept the bogus and purposefully disingenuous attempts to make Lucy, Ida and Ardi the missing links, which were clearly designed to prove Darwin was right in the central point that men evolved from apes--not created in his present form by God. Yet you rail against those who point out the weaknesses in the theory.
In fact you will not find in my post any statement of acceptance of those fossils as representing anything. In fact I did not comment on them directly. Rather I addressed the fallacy or canard that the article promoted and which you have repeated that the theory of evolution asserts that men evolved from apes. In fact neither Darwin nor any other evolutionary biologist has ever made such a claim. This was and is a misrepresentation made up by critics of the Theory. This is called a straw man argument. That being, claiming the opponent said something he didn’t say and then tearing it apart supposedly showing he is wrong. Well since he never made the claim in the first place disproving it shows nothing. Let me state it again clearly. Regardless of what anyone may have told you the Theory of Evolution does not I repeat does NOT claim that man descended from Apes. Anyone who claims it does is simply ignorant (not stupid) of what the theory claims.
Continued next post. -
Hi TLchild,
It seems to me if I understand your posts that you accept the bible as a literal authority and that if any proposition is contrary to the literal statements of the bible including particularly Genesis in this context then that proposition must be false. Under this view which you appear to hold with your statement.
"I do not understand how a TRUE Christian could deny anything that occurred in the Bible. I hope that this is plain enough for you as to where I stand"
any argument from myself or any others that asks you to look at what we feel is evidence contrary to a Literal interpretation of Genesis would be rejected. Therefore I will not disrespect you by trying to argue the points.
I respect your faith statement that you accept the statements of Genesis as unquestionably true. I simply ask that you acknowledge your own position that this is the case. Specifically that such an acceptance of Genesis as literally true is indeed an act of faith in the authority of the Bible and not science based on gathered evidence.
Also as a side note I must point out that regardless of your view of the validity of evolution you should when disagreeing with something at least know what you are disagreeing with. By this I mean to point out that contrary to the statements in your posts the theory of Evolution does not claim that man descended from apes as you repeatedly suggest.
Whether you accept me or not Your brother in Christ. -
Wash. State to Bar Religious Displays Inside Capitol Buildings
viking »Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:21 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0
Honhnson,
How dare you say such belittling and terrible things about our great and wise judicial prophet. Little human it is not your place to point out an error (whoops I mean supposed error) on the part of our enlightened one. Have you not tasted of the lemons, have you not been graced by the words of the self annointed. Withdraw your slur sir before you are banished from his prescence and his company. -
Hi I reposted my flagged post so all could see that in fact MGT's claims about my statement are quite false
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Flagged as inappropriate. show As a christian and a rational person I find stories of this sort to be offensive. Of course as Steve and some others point out Darwin was wrong in some things. Just as Copernicus was wrong (orbits aren't circular) about some details but not his basic thesis of heliocentism. Also Newton was wrong about the nature of gravity but not about the inverse sqaure law or universal attraction. Scientists are a good example of the Biblical admonition but now we see through a glass darkly. But just because the vision is not perfect is no reason to intellectually put our own eyes out as the AIG and others of there ilk do. But enough soap boxing. This article lost all credibility when I read. Last spring the bones of "Ida" were revealed. She was a lemur-like creature that was labeled as another missing link between apes and non-apes. Of course this is the same old canard repeated over and over by those ignorant of the actual theory about "descent from apes" The ignorance of the authors was further confirmed with the following ludicrous claim He presented genetic data from the biblical accounts of Adam and Eve and Noah's family to show how the Bible is really the history of mankind. I found myself bemusedly wondering where in the OT this person discovered phenotype trait expressions or perhaps mitochondrial DNA tracing. Even if one accepts the GENEALOGY in the Bible as factual it is not GENETICS. This shows once again how these folks attempt to dress Faith issues up in pseudo science language to borrow authority from a purported (but false) scientific basis hide
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Flagged as inappropriate. show As a christian and a rational person I find stories of this sort to be offensive. Of course as Steve and some others point out Darwin was wrong in some things. Just as Copernicus was wrong (orbits aren't circular) about some details but not his basic thesis of heliocentism. Also Newton was wrong about the nature of gravity but not about the inverse sqaure law or universal attraction. Scientists are a good example of the Biblical admonition but now we see through a glass darkly. But just because the vision is not perfect is no reason to intellectually put our own eyes out as the AIG and others of there ilk do. But enough soap boxing. This article lost all credibility when I read. Last spring the bones of "Ida" were revealed. She was a lemur-like creature that was labeled as another missing link between apes and non-apes. Of course this is the same old canard repeated over and over by those ignorant of the actual theory about "descent from apes" The ignorance of the authors was further confirmed with the following ludicrous claim He presented genetic data from the biblical accounts of Adam and Eve and Noah's family to show how the Bible is really the history of mankind. I found myself bemusedly wondering where in the OT this person discovered phenotype trait expressions or perhaps mitochondrial DNA tracing. Even if one accepts the GENEALOGY in the Bible as factual it is not GENETICS. This shows once again how these folks attempt to dress Faith issues up in pseudo science language to borrow authority from a purported (but false) scientific basis. hide
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Hey all posters,
Did anyone notice how silly Al's little "Easter Challenge" is. Well let me demonstrate.
Let's take the proposal and apply it to another situation. Please take the eye witness reports of the assasination of John F. Kennedy and assemble them into a single consistent chronology .
"The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single" eye witness "detail be omitted. Fair enough?"
and if you can't that is supposed to prove somehow that the assasination never actually happened. See how silly that is? -
By the way al have your gotten that well deserved call from the white house on your nomination to the SC yet. LOL
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Oh al thank you for once again proving my point in your last post. I notice as predicted you are still incapable of admitting your error in your responses as aforementioned. By the way you comment on my "beliefs" but apparently have no idea what they are. It is interesting that you spend so much time ranting that you apparently fail to take the time to read the posts of those your respond to .
I see as is typical of a narcicist that you find being called on your errors intolerable. And as predicted you did come creeping back. -
Regarding proving the accusation I don't ask anyone to accept my assertions on my word just review the exchanges between the Narcicist and aveteran and hman below to see for your self.
Also note when he finally realizes he can't bully or intimidate someone into silence he tells them to go away and claims he will not talk anymore. But as is his nature he always comes creeping back. -
Ahhh
I knew that he would never be able to resist. There is a name for that condition. Narcicist.
Notice still completely incapable of acknowledging an error and feels compelled to insult even those who agree with his positions just to prop up his fragile ego.
Of course if it was within his psychological capability he would long ago have admitted his responses to several here including aveteran and hman were in error in his understanding of their posts. But it is highly unlikely that he will ever be able to do this.
Remember he deserves our pity not our anger. -
wow after a week of being up someone's vanity was so offended they had to come back and try to cover up the painful truth. So pathetic.
Holy Bible: Mosaic
On our own we are little more than bits of stone and glass. Together we are the Body of Christ. Holy Bible: Mosaic is an invitation to experience Christ in His Word and in the responses of his people. Each week, as you reflect on guided Scripture readings aligned with the church seasons, you will receive a wealth of insight from historical and contemporary writings.
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