Logic let me point out what I believe was an unintentional error made in haste in your next to last post. You stated. For now, suffice it to say that based on prior case law, students holding up religious based signs at a public school sponsored event-regardless of whether these signs were student initiated or not, constitutes a violation of the Establishment Clause. While not completely fa...more

Logic let me point out what I believe was an unintentional error made in haste in your next to last post. You stated.

For now, suffice it to say that based on prior case law, students holding up religious based signs at a public school sponsored event-regardless of whether these signs were student initiated or not, constitutes a violation of the Establishment Clause.

While not completely familiar with all the case law I don't think this is quite correct. Isn't it the case that this is only held to be a violation if the context creates the implication of official sanction, support or control over the message. For example if students in the stands at this same football game had held up the same signs as a private expression of their support for the team, it is my understanding that this would not be a violation. Isn't it in this case the fact that the students in question were acting within the capacity of their role as athlete representatives of the school that creates the grounds for an implication of government favoring a particular religious view.less

Logics 1206 post is as usual right on target from a legal perspective. Further it should be obvious from even a casual consideration of such authors as Hawthorne, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, etc. that a familiarity with the biblical underpinnings is necessary to even a basic understanding of thier works. Just as a knowledge of Greek/Roman mythology is necessary for an understanding of many oth...more

Logics 1206 post is as usual right on target from a legal perspective. Further it should be obvious from even a casual consideration of such authors as Hawthorne, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, etc. that a familiarity with the biblical underpinnings is necessary to even a basic understanding of thier works. Just as a knowledge of Greek/Roman mythology is necessary for an understanding of many other important literary works. Similarly an understanding of not only Christianity but familiarity of other religions including Judaism and Islam are critical to a competent understanding of the histories of western civilizations.less

His Kid thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate the value of your years of study and experience to illuminating scripture. While I do not dismis the OT or try to diminish its importance I find it astonishing that some Christians (and I am not including you in this observation) are obsessed with the 10C and the OT especially Genesis almost to the exclusion of the teachings of Christ....more

His Kid thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate the value of your years of study and experience to illuminating scripture. While I do not dismis the OT or try to diminish its importance I find it astonishing that some Christians (and I am not including you in this observation) are obsessed with the 10C and the OT especially Genesis almost to the exclusion of the teachings of Christ.
I do feel that your recent post does indicate a difference between us. Your statements

The Jewish people had drifted from what God had said. The Rabbis had added to His Word greatly, making it impossible for the people to even begin to keep all th laws they dreamed up. The Pharasees were legalistic (Boy is THAT an understatement!) Jesus lived His life demonstrating the right way to live, the right way to treat others, the right way to keep God's Law, which was a far cry from what had evolved.

Seem to imply that Christ was not qualitatively different than other prophets who called the people of Israel back to righteousness under God's law. Perhaps this is not what you mean but it is the impression that is given. To me Christ is not a prophet calling the nation back to righteousness under the old covenant but rather the embodiment of a new covenant and a new revelation of the glory and majesty and will of God.less

criterion's descent into ad hominem attacks serves only to debase himself and the debate. It distracts from any meaningful discussion of the question at hand. Whether one likes it or not Logic is directly on target in his explanatio of the legal issues involved in this case. If there was any doubt in anyones mind about the question of whether the cheerleaders represent the government sch...more

criterion's descent into ad hominem attacks serves only to debase himself and the debate. It distracts from any meaningful discussion of the question at hand.
Whether one likes it or not Logic is directly on target in his explanatio of the legal issues involved in this case.
If there was any doubt in anyones mind about the question of whether the cheerleaders represent the government school. I would suggest you ask them. I would bet next year's salary that they would loudly declare there pride in representing there school. So of course the banners are an implicit endorsement of Christianity.
If on the other hand any one of these persons wished to come to the game out of uniform with banners they had made (not with government funds) and display them from the audience there would of course be no government endorsement.less

Jim, a bit esoteric, but on point. It is always a little shakey when we try to prove a preconcieved point through linguistic gymnastics with a language which at best is extremely dificult. Thank you for the clarification which rings much truer than the earlier posts interpretation.

His Kid if there is no distinction between the gospel of Christ and the 10 commandments then what need was there for his teachings. I would contend that you have mistated the case. While the world was created by and through the word I believe this is much less linear and concrete than you portray and much more mystical than we can understand fully. In regard your contention The two commandm...more

His Kid if there is no distinction between the gospel of Christ and the 10 commandments then what need was there for his teachings. I would contend that you have mistated the case. While the world was created by and through the word I believe this is much less linear and concrete than you portray and much more mystical than we can understand fully.
In regard your contention
The two commandments Jesus gave, to love God and to love you neighbor as yourself covers all 10 commandments given in Exodus. The command to love God covers the first 5, and the command to love you neighbor covers the second 5.

While this may be true the converse your statements imply that the 10 commandments cover the commandments of Christ is not true. For example it is clear that the second 5 commandments are restrictive in nature prohibiting unlawful behavior but not placing an affirmative burden upon the hearer. Christ's command is quite different than these placing an affirmative duty upon us all. The parable of the good samaritan was not to show unrighteousness under the law since neither of the first passerby's violated any of the latter 5 commandments. It was to show that the simply following the law was inadequate. This is shown over and over in
Christ's ministry. For example Christ's teaching to the young rich man who claimed to have obeyed all the law. Notice Christ does not dispute this but rather again points out that this is insufficient to be perfect. Instead he lays a new affirmative burden on the questioner.
This is why I made my point and stand by it that not only in this ABC feature but also in the disputes over 10C posting in courthouses etc. etc. Christians who pursue these things are diverted from our true commision of spreading the gospel of CHRIST and his teachings.
Perhaps this is because quite frankly it is much easier for example to obey the command Thou shalt not murder than it is to lay down ones life not only for a friend but even for those who revile and hate us.
We are called in the end to a much stricter and narrower path than the 10Cs.less

thanks for the clarification mike.

Interesting thumbs rather than any refutation of fact on that post.

Jim, I agree with your position on this since to me it conforms to Christ's teachings. Besides that regarding Ceaser another that seems appropo is that one can not serve two masters.

To me what is so unfortunate about this is all this focus on the 10 C's rather than on the teachings of Christ.

It seems pretty clear to me that Christ spoke to this issue when asked directly about tax exempt status (exactly the issue at hand). My recollection is that he said render onto ceaser what is ceaser. If Christ himself and his apostles were properly subject to tax then why would these pastors wish to depart from the tradition of Christ and not render unto Ceaser.

Mike unlike GF I will not throw around words like liar. However I will point out that you are mistaken regarding the Gender make up of the U.S. teaching staff. * By far, most male teachers are found in middle or high schools. * Overall, men comprised 24 percent of teachers across all grades in the United States, kindergarten through 12th grade, in 2006-07. * That percentage has eroded, wit...more

Mike unlike GF I will not throw around words like liar. However I will point out that you are mistaken regarding the Gender make up of the U.S. teaching staff.

* By far, most male teachers are found in middle or high schools. * Overall, men comprised 24 percent of teachers across all grades in the United States, kindergarten through 12th grade, in 2006-07.
* That percentage has eroded, with a decline in the number of students in teaching programs even while women make up an increasing majority of all college students.
http://www.columbian.com/article/20081109/NEWS02/711099986
The National Education Association says the population of male teachers nationwide has been shrinking for decades. Roughly 21 percent of the country's 3 million teachers are male, according to a 2004 NEA report.

However GF is also wrong the decline in Males did not accompany some bizzare conspiracy. In fact the male numbers have declined primarily in response to the growing gap between teacher wages and other professions requiring equal preperation from the mid 70's onwards. Males due to continuing bias in hiring had more options to enter other than teaching gravitated away from teaching this was accelerated by the higher risk of males being accused of improper behavior regardless of actual behavior. Several studies have shown this.less

Daniel You are misreading the study. The study you cite concluded Students who receive comprehensive sex education are half as likely to become teen parents as those who get none or abstinence-only sex education, according to researchers at the University of Washington. What's more, teens who had comprehensive education, which typically discusses condoms and birth-control methods as well ...more

Daniel
You are misreading the study. The study you cite concluded

Students who receive comprehensive sex education are half as likely to become teen parents as those who get none or abstinence-only sex education, according to researchers at the University of Washington.

What's more, teens who had comprehensive education, which typically discusses condoms and birth-control methods as well as abstinence, were no more likely to engage in intercourse than peers who were taught just to say no to sex before marriage, researchers said.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2004293974_sexed20m.html

The quote you give is out of context. If you check the actual background research report behind the news article you will find that the surveys included measures of internal reliability which have a high confidence of identifying survey respondents who respond falsely. In fact there was no significant difference in the detected honesty of the students who recieved comprehensive sex ed and those who recieved abstinence only. Other studies which used surveyed actual pregnant teens in medical settings found the same results in regards to comprehensive sex ed vs. abstinence only. Namely that abstinence only ed. did not reduce the likelyhood of pregnancy but rather if anything increased it.
To me what this shows is that the schools giving abstinence only lectures in the context of kids who are sexualized by the culture and in families which condone early sexualization has little if any effect on sexual activity and only results in ignorance in the prevention of unwanted pregnancies.less

Unfortunately much of this debate is base on a false premise that youth problems are higher than they have ever been. In fact this is not the case. For example the teen pregnancy rates have been going down for several decades not up. Since 1988 the teen pregnancy rate declined in every state and D.C. and the abortion rates amongs teens dropped form 50% from its peak in 1988.(http://www.guttmach...more

Unfortunately much of this debate is base on a false premise that youth problems are higher than they have ever been. In fact this is not the case. For example the teen pregnancy rates have been going down for several decades not up. Since 1988 the teen pregnancy rate declined in every state and D.C. and the abortion rates amongs teens dropped form 50% from its peak in 1988.(http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf)
Also juvenile crime has been decreasing for example juvenile crime rates dropped about 13% from 1994 to 2000 http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/410437.pdf. In regards to SAT scores again the popular myth is wrong while total average reading scores have dropped from 530 to 502 from 1972 to 2007 the math scores over the same period rose from 509 to 515. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#Dropping_SAT These rough results however are themselves misleading. The factor which has most directly impacted the SAT scores over the past few decades has been the increasing diversity of students taking the exam. In fact a much wider range of students take the SAT today than in the past. In particular this includes a much larger segment of children from poverty and students who in the good old days were classified as "not college material". In an apples to apples comparison SAT scores have not declined over time. The drug question is more complex in that when many persons speak of youth drug use they exclude alcohol. However alcohol has been historically and remains today the number one substance abused by both adults and youth in the USA. That being said over all substance abuse in youth (including alcohol) has declined not risen over the last several decades. This has been primarily a result of more restrictive laws regarding the purchase and use of alcohol by minors (i.e. drinking age).
All in all given the increasing lack of stable home family structures, the decline in the percentage of families in a supportive church community, and the break up of stable communities through an increasingly mobile society it is really amazing that students are doing as well as they are.less

believer, Hi you posted The reality is if we are to see an end to these problems in our public schools it will take a community wide effort that has to include the parents, the schools, the local churches, local law enforcement, and local businesses, but with the primary responsibility being that of the parents with the assistance of these other agencies. While their might be some disag...more

believer,
Hi you posted

The reality is if we are to see an end to these problems in our public schools it will take a community wide effort that has to include the parents, the schools, the local churches, local law enforcement, and local businesses, but with the primary responsibility being that of the parents with the assistance of these other agencies.

While their might be some disagreement over what the causes of the problems were I think all reasonable people would agree with this post of yours.
Lighting candles and building bridges as you have suggested is harder work but ultimately more satisfying.less

What is astounding about this is that Dawkins and Armstrongs comments about Evolution are at least as equally wrongheaded as the comments about religion. Dawkins claims that Evolution is the creator of life. I can just see the true biologists cringing in frustration at such a fundamental misrepresentation of Evolution. Armstrong is just as bad with her claim that evolution tells us that ther...more

What is astounding about this is that Dawkins and Armstrongs comments about Evolution are at least as equally wrongheaded as the comments about religion. Dawkins claims that Evolution is the creator of life. I can just see the true biologists cringing in frustration at such a fundamental misrepresentation of Evolution.
Armstrong is just as bad with her claim that evolution tells us that there is no Intelligence controlling the cosmos. Every true scientist will declare that it is beyond the scope of science and the scientific method to shed any light one way or the other on the existence of a creator.
Just incredible.less

Hi child, Now that sounds like an honest and sincere post speaking from your own heart. While I may not agree with your interpretation I can respect the sincerity of your faith. This is firmer ground for you to stand and defend your position than venturing into the arena of debating the scientific merits of the theory of evolution. Be well and may the lords blessings be on you.

Hi Child the difficulty has nothing to do with the power or authority of God but rather the misinterpretation of Men. I am sure you would agree that the Old Testament was a Jewish book long before it became Christian scripture. Christ was of course himself an observant Jew. So to understand the Old testament we must look not to recent interpretations by men trying to read imperfect translations...more

Hi Child the difficulty has nothing to do with the power or authority of God but rather the misinterpretation of Men. I am sure you would agree that the Old Testament was a Jewish book long before it became Christian scripture. Christ was of course himself an observant Jew. So to understand the Old testament we must look not to recent interpretations by men trying to read imperfect translations out of the context of talmudic tradition but rather to the historical jewish understanding of Genesis. Here is a link to a sample article that does a fairly good job of illustrating this. And showing that the modern Creationist literal view of Genesis is inconsistent with the historical Rabbinical understanding of Genesis. You see by this it is not as I said above an issue of doubting God's power or as some state it calling god a liar. Rather it is a matter of returning to a proper historical and scriptural understanding of Genesis.
http://www.yashanet.com/library/missing_link.htmless

Hi Child, you ask why we have a seven day week. Well the reason is very well historically established that our week derives most closely and directly from the roman week. This week however was co existent with the jewish 7 day week which preceeded it. This week was codified with the requirement of an observed sabath during the mosaic period. However the 7 day week precedes both Mosaic and Ab...more

Hi Child, you ask why we have a seven day week. Well the reason is very well historically established that our week derives most closely and directly from the roman week. This week however was co existent with the jewish 7 day week which preceeded it. This week was codified with the requirement of an observed sabath during the mosaic period.
However the 7 day week precedes both Mosaic and Abrahamic periods being first recorded in sumerian cuniform tablets at around 2350 B.C. Abraham having his biblical origins in this area of the world would have been familiar with the Sumerian 7 day week prior to the origin of the Abrahamic peoples.less

Hi child, yes I believe that God is all powerfull in fact I believe that God is so omnipotent that as creator god was able in a single act of creation to set in motion the processes and laws of the universe including the conservation of matter and energy and evolution amongst others. I further believe that god does not break his(I use the masculine for convenience) own creation by interfering dir...more

Hi child, yes I believe that God is all powerfull in fact I believe that God is so omnipotent that as creator god was able in a single act of creation to set in motion the processes and laws of the universe including the conservation of matter and energy and evolution amongst others. I further believe that god does not break his(I use the masculine for convenience) own creation by interfering directly with these laws and processes. I don't believe he is that clumsy. I believe instead that he is so omnipotent that he created a universe in which reasoning, self aware, free willed creatures were an inevitable result of the laws and processes of his creation.less