Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Excellent set of verses, forsaltnlight- a few of my favorites in there. The issue I have still remains, however, because when we look at those verses contextually, they are meant to apply to those who have been saved. I fully agree that for everyone who has been saved by the grace and love of Jesus, these things are rules that we follow. My issue is when we expect our government and leadership to follow the same rules that we apply to the redeemed. America may have many Christians living in it, but America is not a Christian. Therefore, there is no place where Jesus says we are to legislate these things for others- just a place where He tells us to follow them ourselves (even unto death, as some of those verses' context state!)

The fact is, people need Jesus more than they need legislation. It is my belief that true change should NEVER come from rules, but only from a transformed heart. Therefore to legislate morality in the name of Jesus seems to be counterproductive to the kind of change Jesus came to bring.

But like I said, that's not even a big deal. The important thing to me that I would like to hear your response to is how you justify hatred in the name of Jesus? This community made claims that Obama was specifically possessed and worthy of our hatred- and even claims that I am blind, liberal, and unsaved. Attacks against my character don't bother me as much, though, as this attitude of hatred towards nominal believers and nonbelievers. Will hatred and judgment ever draw them to Christ? Is that what drew you to Christ? Or is it, in fact, the unconditional love and grace of God that should be what characterizes His church?

Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:22 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

One last comment before it's wshelor's bedtime-
"if someone was breaking into your house to do you or your family harm, you would either call the police or defend your family yourself and not turn the other cheek, if not you got a problem."

That's an extremely interesting question, forsaltnlight, and one that deals a lot with the difference between our ideas and practice. In that situation I would both call the cops and defend both my family and my stuff. I would not turn the other cheek, I would take them to court and get back everything they took from me that was mine. Therefore, I would hurt someone to defend my worthless, earthly treasure- but I would NEVER tell you or anyone else that doing so was the right thing to do. Jesus would have given it away. Someday I hope to do the same, but today I am still weak.

:-) Goodnight, and may the Lord bring wisdom to us both!

Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

haha, it did it again. I think I know the problem.

I'm willing to drop it for my second main point.

Second, I believe this comment board's treatment of Barack Obama is sinful. In these comments, he is called a satanic being, full of all evil, an abomination, Satan's kin, and the evil one. For just suggesting that we should love him anyway, I have been called blind, liberal, empty of the Holy Spirit, and have even been directly implied to not be a Christian.
I don't think his views are right. I just think Jesus would rather have us characterized as a people of love and compassion than what I have seen- hatred. Even if he has done evil, Barack Obama is not beyond Jesus.

One last comment before it's wshelor's bedtime-
" â

Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

hmmm, it cut off half of it. This message starts at the comment below...

Iâ

Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight (and also any other users reading this), the first thing I want to say is- I'm sorry if this seemed like an attack in any way. In the end, we are two pilgrims on a search for the truth, and that search has led us to Jesus. We are brothers, and if I made it seem like it was you vs. me, it was entirely a mistake.
As for stepping on my political toes, don't worry about that- I'm a very conservative Republican! However, my life goal is to fight for the truth of God as presented in His word- to seek the truth, no matter how difficult and painful it may be. In the end, our goal is the same- to know and be known y God. Now that the personal introduction and "olive branch" ;) is out of the way, let's get back to the discussion! (I love a good discussion, and you've made some excellent points here!)

(1): "Wshelor, Jesus said if my Spirit live in you, you will not and can not stand for these policies or stand with those who stand for them because of conscience sake" Jesus did not specifically say that or anything that could be translated that anywhere in the New Testament. As a matter of fact, Paul seems to say almost the opposite in Romans 13.

Sin is wrong- there's no question about that in my mind. (1) I just wanted to propose the idea that it might be better to not force a false holiness. But that wasn't even the main idea, and Iâ

Mars Hill Pastor to Debate Existence of Satan on ABC

wshelor »

Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:30 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

There does not in fact have to be a devil, chaplainmichael. As a matter of fact, there was a time when God existed and the Devil did not- the devil is not eternal. Therefore, it is clear that good does not rely on evil. (this is a common idea in the world today, but is sadly untrue).

However, if one is a Christian and believes God to be real, the Bible as His word must in fact be authoritative (see the ideas of bishop N. T. Wright for a great treatise on this), and if the Bible is authoritative, then satan does exist- at least for now.

As a side, scientific note, darkness does not exist- neither does cold. Darkness is just the absence of light, and cold is just the absence of movement. I believe evil is just the absence of good, and does not have to exist. We just cannot imagine an existence without evil because it's so natural- but that's not the way it was meant to be.

Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

forsaltnlight, there are 2 things about what you've said that concerned me.
(1) A search of the Bible shows me that Jesus did not say what you quoted Him to say, and neither did He say anything similar to that. People tried to make Him say that about the Romans- they wanted Jesus to come in and wipe out the oppressive Roman government- but in the end, Jesus refused- He only said to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. The thing that concerns me is that the persecution Jesus spoke of is appearing to begin in America, and this set of comments appears to contain no love or prayer whatsoever.

(2) I really question the wisdom of making morals legal. I know it's something that's been a common thought in evangelicalism, but America is not a Christian nation. We are a nation who has often allowed- and even encouraged- Christianity, but as a nation the Bible has never been as central as it should be to Christians. Therefore, although it provides us opportunities for witnessing, this nation should not expect everyone in it to either (1) be a Christian or (2) act like a Christian.

A government that forces people who are not Christians to act like Christians cheapens the Gospel- the idea that apart from Jesus, none can be saved. Without His saving power, there is no hope- not in a Democratic government, not in a Republic government, and not in any other government.

Christians Optimistic but Disappointed in Obama

wshelor »

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:47 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Brothers and sisters, I am greatly confused as I read these comments. More than half of you have implied that Barack Obama is in some way evil or satanic in a special way. You seem to imply that if we had voted for someone else, things would be better. Do you truly believe that?

To be honest, I am greatly saddened by the amount of hatred I've seen for him. Not only is Barack Obama a man, he is a man who claims to be a Christian as we are. I know, I know, some of his beliefs are a little... off. He's gone into a few of the liberal Christian heresies. However, our response to that should be to pray for him, not to wag our fingers and tell the others "I told you he was satan!" every time he makes a decision you don't agree with.

In Romans 13, Paul tells us that one of the reasons we are to submit to authorities is because of our conscience. The fact is, Jesus is neither democrat nor republican. You're allowed to be, but if you are a republican who does not love your neighbor as yourself, your conscience is forefeit and you have missed the second most important rule.

Hear me on this, dear ones- I'm not saying liberalism is okay. I strongly disagree with Obama's policies relating to abortion. But I think this rampant hatred of his administration and party is exactly what Jesus would have fought against. Let's reconsider for a few moments what exactly Jesus meant in Matthew 5:43-47, and remember that neither democrats nor republicans can truly be the hope for America- only Jesus.